Tech, Meaning, and Mental Health: Key Insights from a Podcast

Name: Rabbit Hole #3 - Who Will Survive The AI Era? (cats, mostly)
Uploaded: 2026-06-01T15:00:26+00:00
Duration: 2 h 28 min 9 s
Channel: Chris Williamson
Description: Summary and key takeaways on Tech, Meaning, and Mental Health: Key Insights from a Podcast, covering Messaging & Communication WhatsApp adoption lags in the
Chris Williamson
Jun 01, 2026
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148 min video
•
2 min read
YouTube video ID: 3sK49MecCCY
Source: YouTube video by Chris Williamson — Watch original video
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WhatsApp adoption lags in the United States while the United Kingdom embraces it, a pattern linked to early free SMS availability in the U.S. Constant digital interaction erodes sanity and creates a “proto‑negative” relationship with technology. The “phantom vibration” effect illustrates Pavlovian conditioning to notification cues, turning imagined alerts into a habitual response.
Cognitive Architecture

People range from purely verbal to purely visual thinkers; aphantasia represents the extreme of visual absence. Forgetting functions as an evolutionary feature, preventing overload that can trigger performance issues such as the “yips” in high‑pressure sports. Human memory hallucinates like AI, filling gaps with fictions—exemplified by the fabricated Grenfell Tower baby story. Training visual memory involves focusing on raw visual data—shadows and shapes—rather than abstract labels.
Meaning & Purpose

A “meaning crisis” surfaces when survival struggles fade, leaving individuals without clear purpose. Religion and ritual, such as the Latin Mass, provide a foothold of certainty in an incomprehensible world. Friction fuels meaning; frictionless environments like dating apps may dilute depth of human experience. Western culture over‑indexes productivity and calendar management, often mistaking time allocation for purpose.
Neuromodulation & Mental Health

Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS) excites or inhibits specific brain targets to treat anxiety and OCD; the “one‑day protocol” aims to boost throughput and cut costs. Stellate Ganglion Block (SGB) delivers ultrasound‑guided anesthetic injections into a neck nerve bundle, acting as a “hard reset” for the sympathetic nervous system and raising heart‑rate variability by roughly 30% overnight. Vagus nerve stimulation targets the inflammatory reflex, showing promise for migraines and autoimmune issues when placed precisely at the cymba conchae. The general chemical‑imbalance theory of depression or anxiety is now considered thoroughly debunked.
Societal & Economic Observations

The United Kingdom ranks high on homicide, education, and healthcare metrics yet sits 51st in GDP per capita if compared to U.S. states. In 2023 the UK recorded 12,183 arrests for social‑media posts, highlighting stricter social enforcement. American cities prioritize pure functionality in design, whereas UK architecture values aesthetic history, leading to the observation that “everything looks like the back entrance, so even the front looks like what would be the back entrance.”
Future Interfaces

Artificial intelligence shifts from dedicated apps to ambient, conversational interactions, signaling the end of the “swipe era.” Apple’s strategy lets external developers perform early R&D before Apple refines and scales the technology. Emerging AI use cases include “looksmaxing”—optimizing personal aesthetics—and health diagnostics, such as large language models identifying skin conditions.
Takeaways

WhatsApp adoption is slower in the United States than in the United Kingdom, a gap linked to early free SMS availability in the U.S.
Forgetting serves an evolutionary purpose by preventing memory overload that can impair high‑pressure performance like the yips.
The meaning crisis emerges when survival concerns fade, prompting people to seek purpose through religion, ritual, and frictionful experiences.
Stellate Ganglion Block provides a hard reset for the sympathetic nervous system, boosting heart‑rate variability by about 30% overnight.
AI is moving from app‑centric models to ambient, conversational interfaces, reshaping how people interact with technology and health diagnostics.
Frequently Asked Questions

What is the "meaning crisis" described in the podcast?

The meaning crisis refers to the loss of clear purpose that occurs when basic survival struggles subside, leaving people without a guiding narrative. It drives a search for meaning through religion, ritual, and environments that introduce friction, rather than frictionless digital experiences.
Who is Chris Williamson on YouTube?

Chris Williamson is a YouTube channel that publishes videos on a range of topics. Browse more summaries from this channel below.
Does this page include the full transcript of the video?

Yes, the full transcript for this video is available on this page. Click 'Show transcript' in the sidebar to read it.
Helpful resources related to this video

If you want to practice or explore the concepts discussed in the video, these commonly used tools may help.
Drawing On The Right Side Of The Brain Recommended
This classic book teaches techniques to shift from conceptual labeling to observing visual data like shadows and shapes, directly supporting the discussion on visual memory training.
Amazon →
Heart Rate Variability Monitor Chest Strap
Provides precise tracking of HRV, which the transcript identifies as a key metric for measuring the nervous system 'hard reset' effects of procedures like SGB.
Amazon →
Man's Search For Meaning Viktor Frankl
A foundational text on finding purpose in difficult circumstances, directly referenced in the discussion regarding the 'meaning crisis' and human purpose.
Amazon →
Vagus Nerve Stimulation Device
Physical devices designed to stimulate the vagus nerve, which the transcript highlights as a method for managing the inflammatory reflex and nervous system regulation.
Amazon →
Links may be affiliate links. We only include resources that are genuinely relevant to the topic.
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Full Transcript YouTube

British supremacy
in messaging services. We need to try
and get everybody to use WhatsApp. This
superior messaging system and Americans
refuse to use it. You know what I think?
>> We was talking about this earlier as to
why Americans don't use WhatsApp more.
One of the theories is that America had
free SMS before anybody else. So, us
Brits had to pay. How much would it used
to be for a text back in the day?
>> 15p maybe.
>> 15p.
>> 10p. 10p.
>> That would ramp up very fast. Well, that
was why people used to use elite speak,
right? That was why you was there like
ly because you were trying to snap
everything to under 160 characters.
>> Yeah. I once when I was 14 years old had
my first ever girlfriend and we would
text and we would text and we would
text.
>> You [ __ ] bankrupted yourself.
>> Well, my dad's obviously my dad comes
down one day and you know when you have
like A4 that you'd stack in a printer,
he just drops that. So on the phone bill
and I'd racked up about £800 itemized
bill text messages. Yes.
>> Wow.
>> So I then sent her
>> That's a lot of texting at 14.
>> I then sent her one final text which was
can't do texts anymore. Let's do calls.
So we did calls all the time. Next next
month.
>> So I had to pay off about 1,200,300
of debt to my father.
>> Still paying it off
>> payment plan. Dad, you're [ __ ] blocking
me. So that's how
>> 14. I'm trying to get I'm trying to get
my credit up. But yeah, I just
WhatsApp's are superior. Tim uses
WhatsApp. Tim's good on WhatsApp.
>> I mean, look, I use every new inbox that
is slowly eroding the sanity of
everybody who's listening to us.
>> Do you guys see the Nikita Beard tweet a
long time ago? It feels like um he said
something like um every time I use
WhatsApp, it feels like I landed in a
third world country.
>> You're allowed to say that.
>> Okay, fair enough.
>> You're allowed to say that.
>> No, I'm really I grew up on Long Island.
I think I'm allowed to say it, too.
>> Rewed Sean for you.
>> Fair enough. That's the primary reason.
>> I think I'm sitting in the same spot.
>> That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. People like
Sean lost weight and the beard's gone.
>> This is the designated seat for the
minority.
>> Uh, you grew up on Long Island.
>> I didn't know that. What?
>> Oh, yeah. Way out by Montalk. Back when
there were potato farms.
>> That explains a lot.
>> That has changed. Now they're nightclubs
that make all the locals crazy. But yes.
>> So, is that beyond the Hamptons?
>> Yeah. Montalk is the end of the line. So
if you take Long Island Railroad out
from New York City, it will end in
Montalk.
And uh it was it was perfectly fine
place to grow up. I didn't realize how
strange it was until I got older because
>> strange.
>> Well, when you're growing up, what is
around you is normal because you have no
reference point. But you're growing up
in a location where you have a barbell
of income and wealth distribution,
right? So you've got all of the let's
just say the broad Hamptons that people
know which would have like the $100
million homes on the beach and all these
famous directors and financeers and
little white shorts playing tennis and
then you have on the other hand like
affordable housing when I was growing up
like crack epidemic in certain parts. So
I didn't realize how much was missing
from the middle of the whole thing.
>> Okay. Have you ever seen Mickey Mantel's
questionnaire answer on the 50th
anniversary of the Yankees stadium?
>> This I feel like this is the kind of
question my dad would ask me. He's like,
"Do you know
>> Henry Rubenstein from 1839?" I'm like,
"No, of course I don't."
>> Mickey Mantel describes in basically a
yearbook for the Yankees Stadium. It's
the 50th anniversary of Yankees Stadium
happening. Mickey Mandal, everybody has
asked, uh, tell us what your most
outstanding experience at Yankee Stadium
was. Uh, and this was sold for $242,000
not long ago, a few years ago. He said,
I consider the following my outstanding
experience at Yankee Stadium. It's like
like a questionnaire. He goes, I got a
[ __ ] under the right field bleachers
by the Yankee bullpen. And then below
that, it says, this event occurred on or
about. Brackets, give as much detail as
you can. says, "It was about the third
or fourth inning. I had pulled a groin
and couldn't walk at the time. She was a
very nice girl and asked me what to do
with the [ __ ] after I came in her mouth.
I said, "Don't ask me. I'm no
cocksucker." Signed Mickey Manel, the
all-American boy. And that was sold
about 5 years ago for $242,000.
Wow.
>> Speaking of Speaking of hedge fund
managers, I'm sure that's in the guest
bathroom of some hedge fund manager's
third home.
>> It's a bargain. You don't think that's a
bargain
>> in Monttok or thereabouts? Yeah,
>> I don't know, man. I mean, like,
baseball's got a lot of superstition,
but that feels like it's taking it to an
extreme. There's like a baseball player
that had never washed his helmet or
cleaned it or did anything for his
entire career.
>> Literally, the the helmet look I think
it's Craig Beio if I'm not mistaken, but
the helmet was just and he he believed
in that so much that it had to be that
way. Never changed. seen the guys walk
out and they go right glove, left glove,
tap tap on the foot. It's it's goes from
being uh preference to routine to
superstition to ritual to basically
something sacred. It's essentially a
rain dance that every
>> or mental illness.
>> I think those two crossover
>> refer to all of my mental illness as a
rain as a rain dance from now on.
>> I'm going to take these suckers off.
That's enough. That's enough [ __ ] PO
POV porn, which actually was the reason
that we wore these when we had uh Bonnie
Blue on the podcast, so we could put POV
in the title of the episode.
>> Has she done one of those with PO with
these?
>> I'm sure if you go dark enough and deep
enough into the Only Fans rabbit hole,
you can find whatever you need.
>> Let me take my toothpick out of my mouth
before I address the table. Um, one of
the things that I've been fascinated
with for a while, I know you have as
well, Christopher, I don't know about
you two, gentlemen, but uh, uh,
ethmologies of everything. So, um, I was
trying to rank my favorite ethmologies
or history of certain parts of language.
One of them is, um, uh, not English, but
it's Malaysian, and in Malay Malayan
culture, they use double rather than
plural. So rather than tables, they will
use table table, which is one of my
favorite things.
>> What if it's three?
>> So it doesn't scale. So it doesn't go
>> that would be a nightmare. If you're a
table factory maker,
>> the same way we just use plural, we'll
say tables. We could say four tables.
They would say
>> I assume the number then table. Table.
>> Wow.
>> Which is such a more fun way of saying
things.
>> The same in Indonesian also.
>> Yes.
>> Like orangutang, man of the forest.
Orang orang is men, right? Man, men
>> man of the men. That's something
different.
>> Well, not a man of the man. I think
that's
>> something you're biopic.
>> Man,
>> but it's it's so much better than a
>> lot of heavy editing in there.
>> Um, one of my favorite ones though is
the word soon. So, the word soon, I will
be there soon, was the Anglo-Saxon word
for now. But because so many people kept
saying I'll do that soon and didn't do
it then we then created the word now to
replace it and soon is what it is today.
>> It soon got shifted down in terms of how
urgent it means
>> generation by generation. What's
interesting now now has that effect
where somebody says I'll do that now.
You don't really take them literally
unless they say I'll do that. I'll do
that immediately now.
>> Yeah. So, it's interesting that you're
seeing this drifting of now now occur as
well.
>> I wonder if literally is the same as
that because when people say literally,
they don't mean literally. Like, I
literally couldn't believe it.
>> Exactly.
>> Well, no, you could believe it.
>> Yes.
>> Which is the entire point.
>> My friend Allesio, he's Italian and he
talks about how he has a different
personality when he's speaking in
Italian. The Swedish writer Henrik
Carlson, friend of mine, he talks about
how he can access different thoughts in
Swedish rather than English.
>> You speak multiple languages.
>> Yeah. What's Japanese Tim like?
>> Lot more polite. Curses less than Long
Island.
>> Are you totally fluent in Japanese?
>> Yeah, I can speak Japanese.
>> Amazing.
>> What's the story of learning that?
My first international trip, real
international trip off of Long Island
out of the US was to Japan as an
exchange student at 15 for a year. I
went from
east coast to Tokyo and it took him
about 3 weeks just to accept that I was
in Japan because I couldn't believe it.
Uh that's how that happened and it just
stuck. I was there for a year. I went to
a Japanese school, all of my classes in
Japanese. I
misunderstood
what I was told before getting there,
which was, "You're going to have
Japanese lessons." And I was like, "Oh,
great." Like, "Japanese language
lessons." And they're like, "Here's your
class schedule." And I was like, "I
can't read any of this." And they're
like, "Physics, world history." I'm
like, "Wait, what?
>> My lessons are going to be in Japanese.
I'm not going to have lessons allowed."
>> Wow.
>> So, that will especially I was lucky
because this was pre-smartphone
internet, not much to speak of. So I
could not coming back to WhatsApp,
right? I couldn't procrastinate or avoid
learning Japanese by constantly
communicating with anyone in English.
>> There was no escape. There's just total
immersion. There's no escape.
>> That seems to be I I get it. People go
and do um university courses in in
Spanish and stuff and it's not just the
language. Sometimes they're learning
about the history and the culture and
other stuff like that. But if you're
trying to learn a language, and I I did
in school, we have to do at least one
language in our GCSEs. typically the uh
11 to 16s in the UK and I did Spanish
and apart from the most basic stuff that
I've probably remembered because I've
gone back out to the country I basically
learned nothing. It would be if you just
wanted people to learn a language doing
a six week immersion would what teach
you maybe the same as a year of weekly
classes.
>> You could do a year and six weeks no
problem. There's um there's a method
called the Michelle Thomas method. And
Michelle Thomas, male, uh was Holocaust
survivor, then became an intelligence
officer, ended up speaking five or six
different languages and developed a
method of getting people up to basic
conversational fluency in a week.
>> Wow. in a rush in a weekend in terms of
giving them the scaffolding of the graph
the the grammar and so forth. But it's a
lot like learning some type of very fine
motor skill. Right? If you wanted to
learn how to play tennis, it's like if
you're playing once a month, you're
never going to learn tennis even once a
week. You're just not getting the
density of practice and the
reinforcement
>> for you to go from the like unconscious
uncompetence to conscious competence to
etc. etc. Right? You're just not getting
the proper density.
So languages I think you can learn
languages a lot faster as an adult than
you can as a kid actually.
>> Why?
>> Uh because you already have the base
layer of labeling and concepts and so on
and
different types of abstraction in the
form of let's just say grammar or a a
subjunctive let's say if you had a
million dollars what would you do? Like
a hypothetical that is counterfactual.
>> These types of things I can explain that
to you. You can't explain that to a
three-year-old. When's the last time you
talked to a three-year-old? They're not
actually very good at speaking a given
language.
>> The reason that people mistakenly
believe that kids learn faster is
because the kids have no choice. The
kids have no mortgage. The kids have no
job. It's just like
>> they're forced into immersion.
>> You have no choice.
>> Have you heard Nasam Talib's um
description of how to learn language?
Said the best way to learn Russian is to
go into a Russian jail.
It's a I mean that's a harsh That's a
harsh trade. Quickest way. Yeah, true.
Life or death scenario.
>> You have to really want to learn Russia.
>> But you will you will learn. Do do you
think can you think in Japanese, Tim?
>> Yeah, I would say that there's uh
typically an English interface. But when
I was in Japan for a year and then came
back to the US, it took me about a month
to get back to speaking English. She
like I remember
>> the first few days when my mom would
come in and wake me up and I would just
start speaking to her in Japanese in
this
>> days and it took a while to get back to
things. The the soon is pretty funny the
emology of that and it makes me wonder
if
the much like the say Eskimos and snow
right or Hawaiians and water or whatever
that it depends on the historical
punctuality of a culture. You say that
the Italians have got five words for
>> Zoom. Well, I think it probably is
something like that, right? Because in
Japan, it's like now is now. There is no
second, third, fourth way to say it
unless you're maybe being really polite
cuz the honorifics in Japanese it's like
12 languages in one if you really want
to be sophisticated with it. But uh I
don't know if they do it in in uh UK but
in uh South Africa they have now then
they have now now
>> just like in in certain places in in
Latin America they have like a like now
and then they have a like a is kind of
like now but like when you get around to
it right or when I get around to it and
then like Aita is like hey [ __ ] now
actually what uh what do you think's the
latest nationality on the planet?
H
>> Brazil
>> the latest
>> latest if you were to I'm going to
organize a dinner with somebody and I
can pick a bunch of different
nationalities. Which one's going to
arrive on average last?
>> I feel like they got like the Olympics
but in reverse.
>> Have you ever have you have you ever
heard of Indian Standard Time?
>> I'm not even sure it's actually real cuz
it's 1 hour later than it's actually
supposed to start.
>> So turns out a long time ago people
would go to the movies.
>> Yeah. And you know the movie doesn't
start on time which is absolutely
hilarious. You're everybody just expects
and then the whole term Indian standard
time came about which is absolutely
hilarious but it's typically referred to
as 1 hour
>> past something after the actual time.
>> I've heard Brazilians refer to Brazilian
time also. Well, what is the what is the
least punctual?
It's anywhere that's got good I think
you can talk about culture and people
and stuff like that, but what's more
interesting is to just talk about what
is the lifestyle of that particular
ecosystem. So if you're going to go
Spain, Italy, you know, Portugal,
they're just you've got wonderful
weather, late nights throughout the
summer, everyone's smoking, having a red
wine, like you've been to Palmer Yorker
or wherever, and you see people outside
sat on rot iron chairs having a
pre-dinner cigarette at 10:30 p.m. at
night. These are old people. They're not
going out, oh, this isn't the beginning
of them going out to go and party and
head to the club afterward. They're not
going stk for a, you know, nighttime
party brunch. Uh, so I would say maybe
some of the Mediterranean places like
that. I guess as I think further a
field, I don't know much about India,
but perhaps other issues.
>> Neither neither do I, but
>> it is um genealogically
you do.
>> Tim, you know a lot about Denmark. I'm
like, I don't know.
>> I wonder this is this is really hippie
crack [ __ ] Um, but this is what we're
here for.
>> Now, now we're getting
>> Now we're getting that. I wonder it's
like that Safia Warp hypothesis of how
much
>> Oh, lost me.
That didn't sound friendly. The idea is
that um it's the Vickenstein quote of
like the limits of my world are the
limits of my language. And we think that
we shape language, but language shapes
us. And it feels immediately like so
trivial, so esoteric to have the
conversation. Everybody kind of
dismisses language as it's almost like
neural linguistic programming that we
shouldn't take it seriously. But how
much the words that we use? So I wonder
um obviously uh England, Australia,
America, Canada, New Zealand, South
Africa share this English ancestry, but
how much then that they have the same
language keeps the culture similar as
well versus if you fork the language do
you change?
>> I don't know, man. If you go and meet a
South African and you compare them to a
Scottish person, they're quite
different.
>> So true. Both angry. Both very angry.
>> So there you go. And we had this at my
birthday in the middle of nowhere.
>> I didn't realize the spectrum exists
when it comes to how people think as
well. So, we had my friend Billy and my
friend Cameron. And Billy can't think uh
visually at all. So, he can only think
in words. Yes.
>> Cameron can't think in words at all. She
can only think visually.
>> Mhm.
>> You know, there's a test that you can do
like imagine an apple in your mind. What
level of detail can you see the apple
at?
>> Could you pull that up, Jared? The Apple
visual test.
>> The lack of it. I think it's called
aphantasia.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. Aantia. How do you guys think? Do
you can you do you think more in words?
Do you think more in visuals?
>> Imagine an apple in your mind. What
level of detail can you see the apple
with?
>> You know, when growing up there was like
this whole um people with like very um
the visual memories or what whatever
they would just like look at something
and then effectively recite, you know,
>> idetic 50 word.
>> Identic is what people think of as
photographic. Yeah.
>> The photographic stone.
>> So Billy, for example, would be number
five.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. He could he would just think the
word apple. Yeah. Fascinating.
>> And then the uh Cameron could see the
apple, but if you asked her to create
that to see the the word apple in her
mind, she couldn't do it at all.
>> I asked her how does she count in her
head and she said it's stairs.
>> She literally visualizes stairs.
>> I mean, I would I'm about 10 out that
direction. Like I have super hyper
visual memory. Like I can remember
almost every floor plan of every
restaurant I've ever been in. What's the
mo like if
>> Yeah. No, I mean I'm not I'm not trying
to store that.
>> So 1010 where we went for dinner the
other evening. Can you remember
>> the table?
>> What was on the table?
>> I don't remember the name of the number
of the table, but it's like this the
server door was directly to our left.
>> Right. We were effectively the last
booth at the edge. The bar was
>> to my right. Nero was to my left here.
Right. you were here uh sort of at my
like 2:00. So, we ordered way too much
edamame garlic and we ordered the right
amount of edamame which is too much
edamame. It's just the only amount of
edamame that's
>> it. It depends on how many gallons of
oil you like on your edetamame.
>> Yeah, it's true. I think salted edamame
when you start to try and spice up
edamame too much ruins it.
>> But here's what I would say just to
quickly put something to this. I don't
want people to feel badly if they can't
go out a few standard deviations towards
like the hyper uh like hyperia, right?
The opposite of amnesia because
>> uh when you have my dad has this as
well, really
exaggerated development of certain types
of memory. It can make it really hard to
let go of grievances.
>> Wow.
>> Slights against you. the email that you
sent that ended up whatever it is,
right? Like there there is an advantage.
There are some tremendous advantages to
forgetting.
>> And so when you when you're not as
selective, you could argue it's almost
counter evolutionary past a certain
point to have an overly developed
memory. I would say,
>> yeah, I think I I can recall like one of
the things that I was talking to
somebody about was that I have vivid um
face recognition like almost like uh
like the face ID type situation and I
can remember faces that I've seen only
one time 15 years ago.
>> Mhm.
>> Problem is this becomes socially awkward
often times you meet
>> there's a massive asymmetry,
>> right? You're like, I I I know
everything about you because we met once
and this was 10 years ago.
>> But you can't really bring that up.
>> Okay. You freak.
>> Yeah. It's like it's it's it's very
creepy.
>> You sound like a stalker.
>> Exactly. But I did not research them.
Similarly with quotes and visuals. I
think I personally have a very very
vivid like visual element and I can
probably look at something once and then
10 years later if you quiz me I would
probably get about 90% of that correct.
>> Yeah. It's wild. Do you want to tell the
story? the forgetting part. I was crazy.
>> Do you want to tell the story about the
first elevator we ever got into
together?
>> Oh my god, yes. I actually um I think
there was a new appointment of an Xbox
CEO and she was like some I I made a
tweet about it. I was like, "Wait, she
doesn't really have any experience with
gaming."
>> Mhm.
>> And um and then Chris and I were in
elevator and turns out she was there.
>> Well, you're leaving out one critical
footnote. That tweet was not seen by two
people. It was it was seen by millions.
Millions of people saw you call out the
Xbox CEO. We get into
>> I was I was just simply remarking about
culture and the way that like people
frame this because like that's a unique
development.
>> But I put my foot in it. I put my foot
in it.
>> Yeah, that was hilarious.
>> I'm trying to big up my friend who
recognizes the Xbox CEO and goes, "Hey,
you're the CEO of Xbox." Who's some
unassuming lady dressed real nice, had
maybe a partner or security or something
with her. I'm like, "You identify
correctly." And she sort of sheepishly
is like, "Yeah, yeah, I am. That's me."
And I think you introduced
>> She was very nervous about it
>> a little. Yeah, she was sheepish about
it, which was quite
>> She was the actual CEO. I was like,
"Wait, that person's usually just like
so into it or whatever."
>> And I said, "Well, you should you signal
on on X. You you must a fantastic writer
tech and all the rest of this stuff.
There is a 100% chance that she saw your
tweet." And immediately as soon as I
said that, the [ __ ] atmosphere in the
elevator went frosty as hell.
>> It was um look, I I nothing against her
personally, but I tried to do something
nice for a friend. It was wonderful.
>> Came back to uh came back to bite you.
>> No, and that that has happened multiple
times. I think going back to Tim's point
about the forgetting part. I think about
this a lot, which is
what a great feature of of the mind in
some sense. like the forgetting part
like I think about AI memory you know
today it's so easy to build like tell AI
to extract some fact and try to remember
it and we store it somewhere and then
you basically use it for some other
thing
>> it's very common people are doing it
how do you forget AI how does like an AI
forget me things like what
>> there's no pruning
>> yeah and like
>> of salience
>> how do you think about the world with
respect to you know building sort of
artificial memory constraints just like
the human And the forgetting part is
such an essential element like that is
no longer relevant or that is not
important at the moment.
>> Mhm.
>> We the AI systems don't really know
that.
>> And so when you pass in a bunch of these
memories into context, which is what a
lot of these companies do, turns out you
get a lot of noise.
>> Yes.
>> And it tries to make these connections
that
>> there you Well, if if people want a real
exaggerated case of not forgetting,
there's an old book called the mind of a
neonist like pneummonic device, the mind
of a neonist by AJ Lura, which is
effectively an extended case study of
someone who never forgets. And uh there
are other ways to look at it. I think
there's a doc called Brainman about
Daniel Dennett. I think I'm getting that
right.
>> And uh
>> the atheist.
Uh, you know what the Dennett I might be
mixing it up with the philosopher who
passed away, but it's something very
close to that. People can look up
Braymond British.
>> I taught I taught George yesterday about
Savant syndrome. You know what this is?
>> Mhm.
>> So, uh, there was a a famous case of a
guy called Thomas McHugh, British guy.
So, in his early years, he was in a
youth prison. Uh, was a bit of a
disruptor, kind of a a hooligan type
guy. And, uh, he's in his 50s, early
50s. And on the bathroom, he shits
himself so aggressively that he causes
uh an anur, like a blood explosion in
his brain. And then as he's on the
floor, he's terrified that someone's
going to find him with his pants around
his ankles. So he tries to pull his
pants up and causes another one to go
off. Completely like pops both sides of
his brain. wakes up in the hospital a
few days later and turns into a
obsessive painter who can only speak in
rhyme and paints between three or six or
nine paintings at any one time. Paints
for 19 hours a day and couldn't uh bear
to think about suffering. So it sort of
sweep the the steps in front of him
>> as he was like some Buddhist guy. He
just had a total come to art moment. Uh
but yeah, shot himself so aggressively
that he had acquired savant syndrome. I
think if you're a great athlete, for
example, you got to you got to learn how
to forget. You guys know about yips,
like in baseball and other places. So,
it turns out, you know,
>> it's like typically, you know, you make
an error or you you do something
>> egregiously wrong in sports, everybody's
watching,
>> right?
>> And then you you're sort of had this
phantom reaction or whatever and then
that continuously happens. And yips is a
is
>> is like somebody throwing that ball and
you know there's some famous players
that have dealt with this problem and
turns out
>> you know you got to forget.
>> Yeah.
>> You got to forget.
>> It's like a conditioned hesitancy or
flinch orchin
involuntary potential reaction. But I'm
not quite sure how how it relates to you
know the the memory aspect of it.
Ultimately,
when you're when you're a great athlete,
you watch a game tape afterwards, you're
like, "Okay, I I process it." And then
you have to discard that.
>> You learn from it, you move on. Do you
guys see the Mark Andre stuff about
>> retarding? [ __ ] maxing.
>> Y
>> that I think component wise, I asked I
asked I asked Hubman,
>> how many times does that word go?
>> Hubman if he's personally threatened by
the [ __ ] maxing movement.
>> What do you say?
>> I think he is. I think he partially is.
his entire career has been built on
anti- [ __ ] maxing
>> and there's a lot of these people who
have like you know they they they have a
set of context I don't know why I refer
to everything like this but um and then
they they sort of keep it around but
it's super valuable to discard some of
that stuff because ultimately none of
that really matters I think Sam Harris
all this stuff go
>> no I think it was it was just really
interesting the present matters the most
>> people tend to focus on the future a lot
more anxiety, the worries or whatever
and then they marry that with the past.
And I think this is this is one of the
things I personally am like how do I
live in the moment, think about what
matters and focus on a few things
from my experience.
>> Exactly. But you learn from it, but you
don't dwell on it. You don't ruminate on
it. You don't I think people I had to I
had to move neighborhoods from a breakup
because every time I walked around I can
viv I could vividly feel the moments
that occurred in that place
>> from a a coffee shop to I don't know
like a flower shop a dog that you
regularly see
>> I walk in a restaurant I'm like I sat
there you know this person was next to
me I knew exactly what we talked out.
>> Mhm.
>> I knew exactly how that moment ended.
>> And I could replay that every single
time I took another step.
>> Dude, one of the best stories I've heard
about this is from Alander Boton, and
he's describing being in Paris, and it's
a early summer day, beautiful weather
outside, a little cloudy, a little bit
of sun, and it's sort of late afternoon,
classic European fashion. This French
couple are sat around a small table, rot
iron chairs, and they've got a couple of
espressos, and they're just so deeply in
love. young couple sort of maybe mid20s
something like that. He's got this line.
He says, "I looked at them and realized
that this beautiful memory would be one
of the greatest sources of pain to one
of these people if the relationship ever
ended.
>> It's strange that this thing that at the
time is really, really wonderful,
>> right,
>> actually becomes the thing that's kind
of the I'm never going to Paris again.
I'm [ __ ] moving to Rome or whatever
it is because I need to totally change
my context." And that's also the same
when it comes to phones, right? I I
tried to stop using my phone and this
still kind of works. I just changed the
pocket that I put it in because I
realized that for an entire decade I'd
had my phone in my right pocket and like
a speed shooter withdrawing his firearm.
I would just put mindlessly put my hand
in my pocket. The number of times that I
pulled my wallet out when I changed it
to look at my wallet. It's just habitu
just this obsessive sort of routine.
>> You guys know about this uh phantom
vibrations. So, it turns out people have
their phone on their pocket, right? And
um I went to a meditation retreat
and um no phones, just meditation. And I
felt vibrations. I didn't even have my
phone in my pocket.
>> Do you have a vibrator?
>> Two of them.
>> There we go. There we go.
>> That might have been my dildo.
>> Um but no one likes
>> We don't call that a meditation retreat
where I'm from.
>> Fair enough.
>> What is body blue called?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. True.
>> Tuesday. It was really interesting and
it turns out I Googled it. Turns out
that's actually a real thing. People
feel phantom vibrations from their
phone. You can go check it out. And I
was like, "Wow, your body is so tuned to
this over
>> every time you get a notification, every
time you get whatever." And most people
have their phone on silent now. So the
vibration's really like a thing with the
haptics.
>> You pavlovianly programmed yourself
>> pretty much
>> to expect this thing to happen. So like
this this sort of device is now a
potential part of your the way that you
sort of feel and understand the world in
this case kind of like a a touch type
sense but it was remarkable and I I went
down the rabbit hole and I looked at it
and I was like wow this is not just me
>> there's so many individuals
>> it like you said if you um if I move my
phone in my the other pocket the other
one will completely vibrate
>> my wallet's going to be vibrating
>> yeah I mean for some people that might
be a wow Now, before we continue, most
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and modernwisdom at checkout. to play um
to play devil's advocate on the whole
the ability to remember everything being
a bad idea. I think a lot of these
conversations rather than a light switch
it's more
>> dimmer and different people different
occasions it will be good and bad for
>> cuz a lot of people look at us being
able to remember everything now very
similar to when writing came along. So
before writing we couldn't store any
information down. So that completely
changed us. But I always think of So do
you guys know um I've forgotten the name
of G um Grenell Tower in the UK. Have
you heard about what Grenell Tower is?
So it's it's kind of it's one of the
biggest um tragedies that's ever
happened in the UK where a council
estate which will be the equivalent of
your projects um was poorly designed set
on fire.
>> Can you get a photo of it up?
>> Loads of people Grandfell Tower. loads
of people um burned alive in it and it
was a huge like government inquiry. How
are we going to fix it? What were we
going to change about it? And what was
the crazy thing about the day was that
as this building was on fire kind of
like 9/11,
>> a baby was picked up on the news was
dropped from the top floor. Look at
that.
>> So a baby was picked up from the top
floor and dropped and somebody caught it
and it was this kind of miracle in this
amaz like horrific day that happened
>> and it got reported everywhere. There
was about five different eyewitnesses
and about 6 months later after the
emotion of the event settled down a few
physicists started looking at it and
going well hold on that baby at a
hundreds of feet in the air if we just
ran the math here it would just
disintegrate on the catch and as soon as
they started to inquire like the
eyewitness testimony it was a completely
hallucinated memory. So on the one hand,
we'll the ability to store memories will
mean that we can't let go of certain
things, but it may also mean that we let
go of complete fictions that we're
telling ourselves that never happened or
that we would invent them as well,
right? Because if you're Tim, your
recollection of the flames is, you know,
in 4K, but the mirage of a baby being
thrown out, you know, the terminal
velocity of a cat is non fatal.
>> What do you mean? The I can't say it any
other way.
There there's only one if if I drop a
cat from any distance.
>> Yes.
>> It's the speed that it reaches when it
hits the ground
>> is exactly
>> on average is non fatal.
>> So it doesn't
>> I'm going to I'm not I'm going to just
raise an eyebrow.
>> Ask Ch. A cat's terminal velocity
depends on its size body position. Yeah.
Whatever. Estimated terminal velocity is
about 60 mph. Some studies and veteran
analysis place it between Okay. So see
look see depends on posture. So if
you've got a cat
>> around 5 to seven stories. Yeah. Okay. I
mean that's higher up than I would
expect.
>> Some cats survive because they reach
terminal velocity, stop accelerating,
relax, and then orient themselves for
impact.
>> And look, I'm not Look, it's it's trying
to caveat like basically am I okay to
throw a cat out of a window? That's what
chat thinks I'm doing.
>> Now, this is one of those cases when
somebody's like, you know, when people
die, they release DMT from their brains.
And I'm like, how would you know that
though? Like who which families
consented to have some science be like I
know this is a hard moment but let me
like tap your grandma's brain and this
is like
>> the terminal velocity of a cat.
>> No but I'm saying I injuries often
increase up to around five to seven
stories like I just want seven stories
and wear in like Sierra Leone. They're
like okay let's take these 40 cats and
drop them
>> just put it into one of those t-shirts
>> 5 10 15
>> t-shirt fireers that they Yeah. Yeah.
t-shirt cannon that they've got in pull
that data from some
>> Speaking of hallucinating, I just want
to fact check myself. Uh Daniel Te a M.
>> Pilously close. All right. What did you
bring to the table?
>> Hallucinating is a really fascinating
subject. So people talk about AI
hallucinations.
>> Now we're in my
>> Oh, sorry. Sorry. Hold on. This is I'm
We're still going. The highest reliably
documented fall survived by a cat is
generally believed to be 32 stories.
Sabrina in New York City 1987. She fell
from the 32nd floor of a skyscraper.
survived with a chipped tooth, collapsed
lung, and minor chest injuries. After
treatment, she reportedly recovered
fully. Dude, telling you, terminal
velocity of a cat, non fatal. They're
able to slow themselves down, right?
Effectively,
>> like a parachute is I mean, I mean,
they're not flying squirrels.
>> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> This is remarkable.
>> What did I get you with the other day?
Uh, it was when we were talking about
the fact that if uh if a man doesn't
have a girlfriend, the way that he
behaves between 7:00 p.m. and 11:00 p.m.
at night can only be destructive.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh I told a friend about this and
>> unless there's the internet.
>> Well, even with the internet, it's still
destructive, right? Cuz you're just
embedding bad habits and doom scrolling
and it's all
>> self-destructive, I suppose. However,
less on
>> I asked I asked a friend about this and
he said, "Yeah, so my my my buddy was
single and I'm in a relationship and uh
apparently at like 8:30 p.m. at night,
he would just receive photos of his
friend headstanding just like selfies of
him doing headstands."
>> What What could go wrong?
>> Yeah. Yeah. All right, Nav, what have
you brought? Come on, give me some Give
me some hallucination thing is really
fascinating. People have this debate on
AI hallucinations and there's a bunch of
these topics that have written in Andre
Karpathy has written a bunch of this
stuff and um turns out you know humans
hallucinate as well almost all the
features of AI today that exist um they
exist in humans in some way shape or
form and people are often um really
baffled by it right they they hate the
hallucinations I think I think of them
as more of like just a replication of
the human mind and how it works and
turns out people hallucinate memories
all the time people manipulate memories.
In fact, if you look at things in the
past,
you're effectively removing
you you you remember often fond memories
or really painful stuff. The middle kind
of fades away often times. I'm curious
to get your thoughts on this, Tim, about
like I think about this a lot because
for our product, we have to like make
sure these things are low and context is
there. what you do.
>> We're building kind of um you know,
today the iPhone is kind of a when you
look at it, when you go for a glance,
people always tap on apps and you have
to go and pull whatever you need to
know. Um we're kind of building a a
layer on on devices that is kind of um
glancible information directly on your
home screen that's entirely processed by
AI. What you might want to know right
now or things might be important to you.
And the idea of intelligence today ex as
it exists it's much more I'm going to go
ask it a question create this giant
prompt do all this stuff and you know
basically you have to do the heavy
lifting where we try to do the heavy
lifting for you by making that
presentation layer directly on your home
screen that sort of understands what's
happening already in the background and
surfaces it when you need to know it. So
it's kind of an agentic home screen for
your iPhone. Turns out the iPhone home
screen hasn't changed in 20 years.
>> You're roughly using the same device,
the same thing.
>> Widgets, I guess.
>> Yeah. And they're underutilized. I think
we use them in a creative way.
>> And so, and so, um, like, you know,
we're not going to go, we're like two
people, three people. So, we can't
really build a device. We can't really
invest hardcore. So, we have to operate
in the application layer and utilize all
the things that are affordances that the
OS exposes to us as developers. So, um,
creatively, we we sort of, um, build
this experience, and we're a few weeks
old, pretty awesome. But it's been so
much fun to be able to think about the
way that ambient AI will really work.
>> Imagine you go into a room, there's a
screen, has presence detection, knows
who you are, what you might want to see
or know or do. If you wake up in the
morning, these are the things that will
kind of light up over time. And so like
this stuff might be in your life
persistently if you want to with your
permission.
>> Have you thought about what to call it?
It feels like sort of context dependent.
>> Ambient is good.
>> Ambient AI lovely Jordy as well. AI
>> ambient AI.
>> AI we need to but I think I don't know
if the terminology is there. You know it
turns out all the terminology that
exists in the past right? You know the
hashtags of Twitter and whatnot are in
invented by their users and people are
like oh we should call it that.
>> Bottom up not top down.
>> Yeah. We're still waiting for a [ __ ]
name for this series on the podcast.
>> Do do you think the future user
interfaces are the glasses that
everybody predicts? Cuz my I was
thinking the other day as somebody who
has zero experience in designing
hardware or products that the I think
the future's probably the AirPod case
where you put the AirPods in. And I
heard I saw a tweet the other day that
Apple have just patented cameras at the
edge of the AirPods. So it could
feasibly pick up the visual information
here. And then with this little box that
you have, it could be you could be
speaking to this device. You could even
have like a little signal receiver,
right?
>> Yeah. So, we're not always on these
screens. We just had the little AirPod
case ears in and then the box here.
>> One of the problems you have with the
the hardware is that you need some
processing power that's outside of it.
That was the the hardcore um I mean, you
had an Apple Vision Pro before you sent
it back.
>> Yes.
>> Um and you need if you're going to have
something on your face or something
that's a wearable, you need to think
about ergonomics and weight. And that
means you need to send the processing
off to a different a different location.
I don't know. I mean, you're right that
>> VR is really not delivered. I think I
there's always it's going to the next
thing we're going to wait for the more
it we comfortable the slim line down or
whatever
>> get there.
>> You think?
>> Yeah.
>> How long?
>> Uh until what? What would be a good like
not quite touring test? It's not
>> okay. So like the the sort of level of
penetration that we've seen with
>> Now we're talking.
with AI or with like pick any any sort
of normal device but AI AI
>> name your podcast
>> yeah depth of p penetration
>> new new series
>> very shallow very shallow um why though
>> like that I don't know like a half a
billion or a billion users of uh either
one product or a category of products
that has something to do with
>> and that that type of mass adoption is
is a high bar but I would say getting to
the point where people actually enjoy.
Let's just call it
thousands of people spending hours a day
using some type of light lightweight VR
AI strongly AI native system
>> 3 years
>> maybe less. I've seen some [ __ ] that's
made by Meta that blew my [ __ ] mind
to their next after the next uh set of
glasses and that was like absolutely
wild to be able to see that. It's still
they're still clunky and dorky, right?
But they'll over the time that they're
building this out to get it down to the
form factor that you need. But I mean
these things where those things are like
>> they're really good. The best thing
about those not an ad. Um, best thing
about those is the fact that you can
take a photo or a video without using
your phone.
>> You know, there's that famous uh video,
was it? Uh, the Shond Deise on New
Year's Eve, maybe 2023. And I swear it's
just this street of people and all you
can see, the entire thing is just phone
screens from behind,
>> right? Looking at the thing you're
supposed to be looking at. Just phone
screens,
>> man. Ridiculous.
>> Well, I would have you heard about me at
the Lou? Have I told you this story? Um,
so I had these on at the Lou in Paris
being a sophisticated individual that I
am. So I had these on and everybody was
just looking at people's feet under the
under the bathroom stalls.
>> George collects George collects feet
fake. So that's uh
>> you can you can you can buy them.
>> Um, it's no it's no longer a permit. You
can't really have eye contact with
people in the western culture because
it's like a whatever. So people are
always looking down on their feet
>> and that's where George comes in.
>> Here it is. So, I had this experience at
the Mona Lisa in the Lou. So, everybody
was there with their phones taking a
photo, but I had these glasses on. But
the problem is because the Mona Lisa is
so small and I'm so far back. My
girlfriend now has a photo of me. So,
there's loads of people taking a photo
of the Mona Lisa and then there's me
with my glasses in the air.
>> I'll I'll get the photo out of you. It's
horrific. It's horrific.
>> It is nice though to be able to record
something without taking yourself out of
the moment. And I think just that, yes,
you know, the oh, I don't like the
battery life or this thing or they're
still a little bit clunky or I don't
usually wear glasses or whatever. Like,
I get it. I get it. I get it. But the
opportunity to be able to just take a
photo or a video without having to feel
like, oh, I'm back on this screen that I
hate. I'm back in this digital
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Do you think you would feel better or
worse after 6 months of not being able
to take photos or video of anything
>> other than like okay you need to take a
photo
business card or a scan for
>> like business purposes? Fine.
>> I for me taking photos doesn't get in
the way of my life anywhere near as much
as just the ambient pinging and
navigating of of the digital device
itself. the photos. I'm in and out. I I
have seen some marathon photo sessions
being taken uh at sunset. I went to um
uh somewhere on Long Island. I can't
quite remember where. Uh
there was a beautiful sunset happening
over a lake and
15, 16, 17 year old skull group. It was
like it was a endurance sport of photo
taking. I'm okay. That's something else.
Like that's kind of almost pathological,
but for me it's I don't know. What about
you? Do you think it would make a market
difference to your life if you couldn't
take photos or videos for six months?
>> I think it's a useful thought exercise.
Uh I would suspect it would be better. I
mean I have not had any
>> says the photographic memory.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Damn. Perfect.
>> I I can train people to have better
visual memory.
>> Okay. Can we do it?
>> What was that? Can you
>> It's not like a, you know, it's not like
an O Pearlman like 60sec bang, you know.
It's not one of those.
>> But what's the like what's the paro um
like basics to to get better at a visual
memory
>> start producing. So I would have people
to get a book like drawing with the
right side of the brain which is a bit
of a misnomer in the way that it
lateralizes things you know
hemispherically but
if you practice for instance this is one
tool in the toolkit right practice
drawing and for instance right if I had
a flower and a vase on this table which
would be not the most compelling way to
get someone to draw but we were all
practicing drawing what you would notice
with most people is that they look at
the flower, they go down to draw it and
they start drawing their mental concept
of a flower, they're not actually
referring
>> to the thing in front of them. And then
there are different tricks you could
use. For instance, if even right now as
we sit in Austin, Texas, bright outside,
could have you look at a tree or a bush
around here, sit down, I'd be like,
"Okay, draw that, but I want you to only
start with the black parts." parts and
you'd be like, "But it's a bright day.
It's a green thing." I'm like,
>> "Look again."
>> And you'd be like, "Oh [ __ ] there are
actually black parts. Okay, we'll start
with that."
>> And as you start to do that or depending
on where you are, it's like when most
people walk through say, I mean, in
Austin, it's easy cuz it's like cedar
tree, juniper ash, oak, like that's it.
I mean, I'm being a little facicious,
but there's not as much tree diversity
as in other places. But if all you see
is quote unquote trees, it's like, okay,
well, let me just teach you. It's also
subject dependent, right? Like the six
most common trees in upstate New York,
Austin, wherever it might be. And all of
a sudden, instead of just seeing trees,
you start to differentiate,
>> right? So all of those, it's partially
visual acuity dependent. It's partially
attentionally dependent so that you're
referencing something as opposed to
referring to your concept of tree,
table, person, whatever it might be.
>> And then there's kind of a label
dependency, right? How fine tuned or
fine sliced is your ability within a
given domain, right? So, if you were
doing like live gesture drawing, which I
think is a great way to practice
drawing, and there are a number of
places around Austin and a lot of places
where you can do live gesture drawing,
you'd have, you know, a model in front
of the room. It's not always going to be
a hot naked chick. I hate to break it to
you guys. Sometimes it's going to be
like obese naked dude, but that's fine.
And they would start with say five
minute poses or they might start with
like one minute poses. Typically, they'd
start with like very short poses. So you
can't over analyze or intellectualize
what you are doing. You have to keep
your hand moving and then they would go
to longer and longer held poses and uh
you'd be shocked how much your visual
memory improves if you do that and you
are not constantly self-interrupting.
>> Um so for me I mean I don't have any
social media on this phone. I haven't
for a couple of years. I do not think
I've sacrificed one iota of quote
unquote being informed at all. Um, I
don't have vibrate on. I do not have
ring on. Um, which can produce some
funny like death spirals of people
trying to like call one another, but
neither person has the phone ringing.
>> Um, but I also think, you know, there's
there's some data to suggest that if
people have fewer mirrors in their
homes, they are generally self-report as
being happier. This is a mirror,
>> right? This is the black mirror. So, I
just I feel like that the less you look
at this thing, haven't run a study on
this, but I would bet a healthy chunk of
change, I just think the less you
interact with this, the better.
Especially given how prevalent fake
feeds are.
>> It's just like the machine is an
illusion. Most of it.
>> Did you guys see that quote where um I
think this philosoph forgot the name,
but it was like man was never meant to
have a mirror.
>> Self-reflection like that is is is
detrimental in some ways. We wouldn't
have known what we looked like until
Jared, can you find out when mirrors
were invented? When was
>> you know with water? You would know with
water.
>> Yeah. You would go to a pond, for
example, and look at your face, for
example. They're their nature or
narcissist.
>> This is why like if you look at animals,
they're for a variety of reasons,
obviously with intelligence or whatever,
but they're often very baffled by their
>> Yeah. presence in the mirror. And now
we're looking at ourselves more often
than ever before. The selfie cameras
effectively changed the the dynamics of
everything.
>> During co there was something called
Zoomface. There was a market increase in
people getting cosmetic surgery because
they were seeing themselves more because
they were spending so many.
>> Now there's there's AI filters on Google
Meet and Zoom skin smoothing for my
interview.
>> Exactly. You would add makeup or
whatever. Going back to your point about
the photographic memory thing. Do you
guys ever play that?
>> Which I don't have to be clear. No. I
No. I know I know people who can do this
and then 10 minutes later read it back
to you right from memory. That is
photographic memory. I don't have that.
>> Um you know that game you used to play
as a kid when somebody would draw on
your back and you would have to figure
out what they drew.
>> Oh yeah. Yeah.
>> Was actually a really interesting skill
building game because then you would
have to effectively imagine
different senses coming together. So you
feel what somebody's drawing whether
it's a flower or a mountain or a sun or
whatever. Always a penis. And if you're
exactly always
>> also a good podcast name.
>> It's always a penis.
>> Um that game was a remarkable.
>> All roads lead to penis. Maybe pretty
much. I know you like the Roman Empire.
Woods. Um I was just double checking
then cuz uh about the history of the
mirror.
>> Can I say how much I live? How you say
double? I can't even [ __ ] say it.
>> Double. That's God. It
>> adds like at least seven. I keep
>> Irish. I'm from I'm from Rodale
originally, Tim. And whenever you're in
the UK, it's a big tourist scene. You'd
love it. I'll take you there. You love
it. You love it. Okay. Um the mirror. So
the mirror um that we we had the
creation of the mirror. But I as part of
AI coming bigger and bigger. I've been
going down like old revolutions. So the
industrial revolution and the
Guttingberg printing press revolution.
So Gutenberg when he was creating the
printing press, he was originally trying
to create I think a mirror machine and
accidentally or ended up morphing into
what became the printing press.
>> What the hell is a mirror machine that
makes mirrors?
>> Yeah. So there you go. So uh around
>> I don't know how you get from that to
the printing press.
>> 1438 to 14
>> You grind sand to make mirrors.
>> 39 Gutenberg was in Strasburg running a
partnership to massproduce pilgrim
mirrors. small polished metal badges
that pilgrims pinned to their hats to
catch holy rays radiating from relics
then carried home to benefit relatives.
>> I like that idea. Um,
>> but
>> it's like a capacitor for religious
goodwill.
>> So, his capital was running out to
appease investors. Guttenberg said he
would share a secret with them. Art and
adventure research that was the basis
for his yet to be built printing press.
>> That's cool.
>> Wow. Nice. All right, Tim, you must have
some heaters. What have you brought from
home? Show me something.
>> Yeah, I've got something. This is an
article. I've got a bunch of stuff, but
I'm going to take kind of a slight left
turn. It's related to a lot of the stuff
we're talking about, but this caught my
attention. It's an article called Riding
the Leopard by Pachy McCormick,
>> and it was it was it was sent to me. I
had never read anything of his and this
was sent to me a few days ago by
uh someone adjacent to one of the top AI
technologists out there, which is part
of what makes it interesting. So, I'll
just I'll I'll read a couple of sections
here and then I want to get your sense
and thoughts on things. So, what a week
to get to talk to room of technology
people. This is a transcribe talk that
Paty gave.
>> Sierra just raised at 15 billion.
Anthropic crossed a 44 billion run rate
and launched a new company with some
huge funds that have 1.5 billion to
deploy blah blah blah blah. Opening eye
did the same thing but with four
billion. Blah blah blah blah blah this
billion that billion. All of which
raises an important question. Who gives
a [ __ ] I mean that. Why do we care? And
then it goes down and he says last night
a woman who reads my newsletter reached
out over subst. She said she'd been
diagnosed with stage four cancer. She's
now in remission. She'd been confronted
with the question we've all been facing.
What happens to human purpose when AI
removes scarcity? Uh or in her case, the
need to be productive. To answer it,
this is the interesting part, right? She
analyzed more than 200 sci-fi books.
Across all of the these books, by far
the most common thing left to solve for
post scarcity is meaning. 59% of books
were about the search for meaning.
Identity was next at 17%.
And
then it goes on and
you know there questions if new
technology is so great why are so many
people unhappy right if we have means
our ancestors couldn't have dreamed of
why is there a meaning crisis and then
it quotes Holocaust survivor Victor
Frankle who wrote the truth is that as
the struggle for survival has subsided
the question has emerged survival for
what ever more people today have the
means to live but no meaning to live for
and ultimately in the piece he ends up
talking about he really goes out there
well I would bet that dear PY has done a
fair amount of drugs but and that's
meant as a compliment Py if you hear
this uh but we get into non-duality we
get into differentiation as moral
obligation but I want to explain the the
origin of the name of the piece riding
the leopard and it's from Joseph Joseph
Campbell and effectively he's talking
about the hero's journey And I'll read
two parts and then I'll stop. But the
goal of the hero trip down to the jewel
point is to find those levels in the
psyche that open open and finally open
to the mystery of yourself being Buddha
consciousness or the Christ. That's the
journey. It's all about finding that
still point in your mind where
commitment drops away. The separateness
apparent in the world is secondary.
Beyond that world of opposites is an
unseen but experience unity and identity
in us all. All right. Then this is the
the sort of wellspring of the name of
the piece. You must return with the
bliss and integrate it. The return is
seeing the radiance everywhere. All
right. The goal is to live with godlike
composure on the full rush of energy
like Dionis riding the leopard without
being torn to pieces. And it goes on.
It's worth reading. It does get a little
squirly uh later on, but what I'm
curious about is how you guys think
about if you do solving for meaning
because
I tend to skew I wouldn't say dystopian
but hyper vigilant and have a lot of
concern for the next 5 10 years. Uh not
just with AI but with the reaction to
AI, right? So, so it's one thing if if
AI quote unquote takes jobs, but if
everyone fears it is going to take jobs,
there's a there are consequences of that
in of itself, right?
>> But I'm wondering how you guys think
about or solve for meaning. And I'll
just add one more thing, which is um
actually no, I'll save it. I'll park
that for for for maybe injecting a
little later, but how do you guys think
about it? You know, one thing that comes
to mind, this is the weirdest thing, by
the way, which is um I like aviation and
there's this is all going to connect,
which is, you know, um turns out
airplanes crash only because there's
multiple systems that go wrong,
whatever. And and um the reason why that
came to mind, Tim, was that um a captain
has a decision to make when something
bad happens. How much do you communicate
what happened to the passengers?
>> Mhm.
>> Like what do you say? Do you do you like
hey you know we've lost hydraulics we've
lost stuff you know multiple systems are
wrong whatever completely transparent
you freaked people out
um do you not share enough information
people are like oh what's going on why
is it turbulent
how does that marry to AI the people who
are building these systems how much do
they communicate what they think are
things that might change about the
future things that might
>> have a turbulent nature to them and that
is the delicate art which is you know
you see Daario going on pods and saying
stuff like
software engineering solved you know
software will be free um once that
happens you know you get these ripple
effects whatnot all the stuff happens
and there's other people who are like
much more optimistic about the world
which is like hey you know what every
and every revolution has created jobs
certainly it has eliminated them but
we've progressed and so it's really
fascinating I think this an interesting
environment where people are like how
much do you even as a a lot of
researchers in San Francisco for example
really believe
that we've solved almost every problem
roughly that that that the dominoes will
fall very quickly from here on out if
you have AI self-correcting
self-ressearching
you get to AGI what happens
>> how do you solve personally how do you
think of it meaning if you do it this is
not a this is Not like a prejudgment
either. I'm totally like what you don't
think about meaning.
>> You know,
>> you crash capitalist.
>> I tend not to I'm not a planner
>> too much. You know, I I I think planning
is is good in some sense, but also kind
of detrimental. It occupies bandwidth
that would otherwise be more useful for
now. I think people tend to live in the
future a little bit more than they tend
they they should.
>> Are you religious?
>> What was that?
>> Are any of you religious?
>> No. No. I'd say I'm spiritual but not
necessarily, you know, organized
religion or whatnot. I
>> Welcome to Austin.
>> Was that
>> Welcome to Austin.
>> You know, I think
>> we all do a bit of Scientology every now
and again, right?
>> Do a bit of Scientology. You make it
sound like we Yeah. Come on. Come on.
>> We do a bit of Scientology.
>> Do you guys see what Brian Johnson
posted yesterday? He was like, uh,
prayer. He's talking about prayer and
he's like, I've been trying to pray more
and I don't know what prayer means and
or I don't know what prayer is. If Brian
goes full circle and ends up being a
Mormon again, that is gonna be
>> There was a quote tweet exactly like
this. He's like, "Turns out the answer
to everything is just Jesus Christ."
>> Honestly, dude longevity or whatever.
>> There was a funny comment. I I mean, I
think Bri, that's an interesting one
coming from Brian. I would actually love
to talk to him about that more than a
lot of the biohacking given his history.
>> Brian's a sweetie.
>> All right. I mean, there was a I like
Brian. There was a there was a comment
though. They said, "Wait, let me get
this straight. Brian left Mormonism. Now
he's telling us we can't drink alcohol.
We can't drink caffeine.
>> I thought that was pretty good. Um, but
so what is what is this? And again, I
don't want to belabor this, but I
actually really want to know from you
guys how you think if you think about
it.
>> I guess there's two there's a few
different parts as I'm saying. I know a
lot of uber successful people who can
logic and debate their way through the
labyrinth of intellectuals around them
who have lots of money who are ready to
[ __ ] jump off a cliff like that stuff
doesn't
>> and do you think that that would be
stopped if they had more meaning? You
think the reason that they would jump
off a cliff is because of their lack of
meaning? I
>> I think that that is one large
contributor
>> and there's a difference like there yes
there's a loneliness epidemic but
solving for loneliness doesn't solve for
meaning. So totally this is there's
quite a lot of strands I'm going to like
unpack. Yeah.
>> Um
chess is an interesting one, right? That
the AI can beat chess. Uh any human
being at chess, but human beings still
play chess. Magnus Carlson seems to have
a very enjoyable time playing chess.
>> Mhm.
And go on.
>> Well, there's an interesting anecdote
there that we this idea that oh, it's
going to take away everything. It's
therefore humans won't have any purpose.
Yet it's seemingly better than everybody
at chess. Yet chess is still popular and
people are still doing it.
>> Mhm.
>> The the big thing for me I mean
>> and the question I'm asking is not
whether AI will remove meaning. It's
more like forget about let's we could
strip AI out of completely. I'm just
curious like how you guys think about it
if you do.
>> So the I think we've discussed it when
I've been in this chair before but the
idea of the precautionary principle. So
the precautionary principle is human
beings have a very very very very good
time at forecasting problems
>> but we have a very very difficult time
at forecasting the solutions that will
come because by definition if we had the
solution therefore there'd be no problem
but you have all these billions of human
beings that end up working on this
problem. My inevitable thing is and it's
this is where I feel it's a bit of a
straw man argument. If this AI is so
intelligent that it's replaced us all
and it's this super god, you'll probably
figure out how to get us meaning.
>> You feel the argument is a little bit
logically
>> George believes that benevolence comes
along with processing power.
>> Yeah, I wouldn't make that last
statement myself. I know some people
like the sort of extremes of techno
optimism would say that. But you know
the point that PY makes in his piece
too, he's like
>> most of those arguments tend to at some
point land on like we're going to cure
cancer and it's like well at this point
like he's he's like there are 8.3
roughly billion people on the planet who
are not going to die of cancer at least
not in the near term and a lot of them
are miserable. So it's like it doesn't
it might solve for certain biotech and
health tech
>> medical problems. Could it understand
the brain and then figure out why these
people are miserable?
This is what I mean around I'm not even
suggesting this is going to be the case.
There's just things that we can't even
forecast.
>> I mean wonderful you've done a wonderful
Bernie Sanders job of two or three times
now not answering the question of how to
personally think about meaning.
>> I've said Scientology but you didn't
want to listen.
>> That's not me. That's Tim.
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How do you how do you guys um
>> do you guys think this is an active
>> process in people's minds?
>> Yeah. Like do people really like think
about it in that realm or is it just a
byproduct of existence in some sense?
>> I think it were a natural byproduct of
existence. I I look I I would just say
may maybe you see this maybe you don't.
I mean you guys all interact on the
interwebs.
the degree of like apathy and nihilism
and
forboding that I think is adjacent or
overlapping with a
creeping dread of meaninglessness in my
audience over the last 5 years is
[ __ ] terrifying.
>> And do you think that AI is contributing
to that?
>> I think that technology and look, I'm
not saying technology is a bad thing.
like ever since we were our ancestors
used some stick to fish out you know a
termite mound it's like I bet on
technology it's you know I've lived in
the bar for almost 20 years still very
actively involved with u different types
of technology but I do think that there
is the equivalent of digital poison and
a lot of us are drip feeding it every
day so it's not necessarily AI I think
AI like money power alcohol psychedelics
is an It's an amplifier. It's an
accelerant.
>> Well, certainly most people's
relationship to technology now is
negative. I don't know many people
perhaps except you who have a
above 80% positive interaction with
technology. I I was on the the treadmill
in the the gym the other day and I was
looking at um doing a little bit of boom
scrolling on my phone and I had a screen
in front of me here and then I had five
screens here and then another five
screens there and then there's a video
wall that's got an advert here and I'm
like dude I'm supposed to be in the gym
and I'm trying to listen to a podcast.
I'm trying to listen to a funny podcast
that's just a safe space hang. I'm not
supposed to be thinking and I'm supposed
to be tuned into this. And every single
different screen had subtitles on. Some
of them had adverts on. This one's my
600 pound life. That one's the news from
from New York City. This one's that. And
I'm like, dude, I can't. It's even I
have to actively avoid screens now, even
if I choose to go screen free. So, yeah,
I think most people's relationship to to
technology is proto negative. So when
they think about if this gets more that
is more of the negative and it's already
removed it for me a bit. I had a really
interesting conversation with Nick
Bosram. So he did his second book which
is kind of like a spiritual sequel to
super intelligence. What if things go
wrong? And then the next one was what if
things go right? What are the problems
of a solved world? And um he had this
really interesting example where he said
basically everything that we value in
other humans
can be refined down to the fact that you
need to negotiate with a world that is
scarce.
Why do I like motivation in someone
else? Why do I like discipline? Why do I
like the ability to tell the truth? Why
do I like prudence? Why do I like good
judgment? Because you need those things
to be able to navigate through a world
which is going to apply pressure to you.
Mhm.
>> And if you remove that, so many of the
traits that we look for in other people,
they may not be that creates a strange
weightlessness with all of the different
values that we've tended to prefer for
all of human history because we've been
negotiating with a world that's pushed
up against us. And if we move that out
of the way, then what does that mean? So
yeah, I think, dude, I I think the
meaninglessness thing is great. George
is
infuriatingly optimistic, which means
that these conversations with him are
always, "If AI is that smart, why won't
it be benevolent enough to fix our
problems?" That's kind of I guess your
>> I'm not saying
>> if if there had never been the if the
transformer had never made the leap to
the I guess GPT3 or 4
the sort of social media and digital
environment
in and of itself just with more of a
linear growth rate as opposed to more
exponential still would be a problem
right
>> it's just overwhelming
>> so we like the AI conversation is just
it sucks up all the [ __ ] oxygen in
the room. Do you know what I mean? So,
it's like we can strip that out.
>> Mhm.
>> Uh as a thought exercise, right? I mean,
I'm curious how you would answer it if
if and I mean, look, this is something
I've been thinking about a lot because
my audience, but also for me, for like
my family
>> and
u I've thought a lot about these debates
that Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris have
had where Sam
>> first one was a [ __ ] car crash
>> where where Well, yeah. I mean, look,
they've they've had car crashes, but one
of the takeaways for me was like, can
any meaningful critical mass of humans
from like first principles develop a
moral and value code for themselves that
is secular,
>> that is in any way gratifying,
grounding, supportive in times of great
duress? Like, I feel like Sam would be
more on that side of things. And then
Jordan's like, it's not going to happen,
right? Like that is why people needed
religion
>> because you have this out of the box
certainty and in a world of
>> um seemingly increasing incomp
incomprehensibility,
>> right, where there is this
>> uh inability to separate fact from
fiction. People need some type of
foothold of certainty. And so I mean I
think religion I mean it's it's I don't
have I don't have to think it. It's
already happening. But it's like huge
resurgence in religion
>> with Latin mass as well which is Latin
mass is one of the if not the most
ascendant uh attended uh religious
services and it's a a service that's
entirely done in a language that nobody
in the audience speaks. And I wonder
whether what what that's doing is it's
almost bypassing people's ability to
scrutinize it.
>> Well, that's obviously not true and
well, you know, I can realize
>> maybe they don't want to scrutinize it.
>> That's the point. That's what I think
that what they're doing is they're
purposefully going, "Oh, maybe it's just
that it feels more archaic. It's more
steeped in history, etc., etc. Maybe the
music's better. I don't know."
>> Um, but yeah, I I I I definitely get the
sense that people are going to scrabble
around to try and reverse from first
principles.
>> Yeah.
>> How do I make myself feel good? But
there is a an interesting question which
is if what we're bothered about is human
flourishing, humans feeling good,
why not have a comforting delusion?
Let's say that it's delusion. I'm not
saying that it is, but why not have a
comforting delusion? Like if the
outcomes of religious people are more
happiness, more meaning, they live
longer, they've got better community,
they've got better health, they've got
da da da da,
>> suddenly seems very rational instead of
irrational. So this was what I learned
from Alex Okconor and it it is Richard
Dawkins speaking to Ayan Hersi Ali on
stage and Ayan was supposed to be the
fifth horsemen of the atheist apocalypse
but she couldn't make the meeting that
day
>> and uh then is on stage talking to
Richard and the audience is sort of half
her fans and half Richard's and she said
I wanted to take my own life not long
ago I I was really low and religion
found me Jesus found me or Christianity
found me. God found me and after the
lowest moment that I had um I'm really
really happy to say that my mental
health's in a better place and I'm
religious
>> and you know you get the sort of
smattering of kind of like empathetic
applause around the room
>> and Alex told me that Richard's almost
immediate response was yes but yes yes
yes but do you really think that Jesus
moved the stone out of the way on the
third day of Arama and what you see is a
guy who is playing a game of optimizing
for rationality whilst ignoring
effectiveness. And you go, how can you
say that it's anything but a positive
when this person's life essentially was
saved by this thing?
>> Mhm. And I it makes me and this is one
of the reasons I think that atheism is
not cool at the moment that it feels in
a world that's increasingly bereft of
meaning. It incre It feels like really
sterile and quite judgmental and quite
harsh and it makes me when I think about
it I'm like I don't I don't it just
doesn't seem very nice to me and I'm
aware uh removing comforting delusions.
Why should you allow someone to indulge
in their silly fantasy?
I'm like, bro, I I think we're getting
toward the stage where comforting
delusions are allowed because if not, I
don't know. So, maybe it is maybe it is
Mormonism.
>> Do you guys um intellectuals often times
um get in this territory where they try
to use proof by counter example? So that
they'll try to find one counter example
in something that you're saying and then
effectively void the whole thing. Mhm.
It's a very common thing because this is
what you do in a math setting or
anything. And they they tend to do that
in kind of a religious setting as well.
And it's like that's not applicable
here. Just because XY X is not true
doesn't mean invalidates the rest of it.
Um and this is why people tend to like,
you know, I think Richard Dawkins is
like religion is a pick and choose kind
of buffet. You know, you can you can go
pick and believe in something.
>> He also did say that AI is uh sentient,
right? Yeah.
>> How old's Richard though now?
>> 70s.
>> '7s.
>> I think as soon as anybody gets over 65,
you got to give them a little bit of
leeway.
>> Public breathing breathing room. Yeah.
>> Why
have you been around anybody over 65?
>> Richard Dawkins.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I was on stage with him. He said
that he would consider trying
psychedelics.
>> I managed to get him to admit to that.
That was fun.
>> But yeah, I
>> What do you guys think of that? The
Richard Dawkins play. I mean, if anybody
would go around and figure out if there
is sentience associated with AI, maybe
Richard Dawkins might be an okay person
to go and figure that out. I don't know.
I don't know how much you guys, but I'm
I'm curious to get your thoughts on what
he discovered or how he discovered it.
>> Oh, he's way above my pay grade. I have
no idea. I would need people to define
sentience. And also like the there
whenever we get into sentience
consciousness, I'm like, let's just
let's make before we argue about what
God does or doesn't like, let's define
God similarly, right? I would just want
to make sure I understand those terms
because once you get into like
integrated information theory and all
this stuff, it's very easy to like get
into these weeds and then you're like 30
pages into reading this and I don't
think anyone quite defined what the [ __ ]
they mean by so I don't know I don't
actually know the context.
>> Yeah.
>> But I certainly have no strong position.
>> Same thing's kind of true with meaning
though. You know, I've read Bowmeister's
paper on meaning happiness that kind of
legendary one from 2010 I think it is.
And uh hey they're good.
the toothpaste.
>> I don't I mean they're very tasty. I
don't know what's
>> uh 15 milligs of caffeine and and some
tasty [ __ ]
>> Sorry if I'm completely off here. What?
>> But part of me thinks that well for
again I hate the optimism.
>> I hate to sound like I'm doing an
affiliate link for the beginning of
infinity which I am. I'll post it in the
link
>> but problems are infinite.
>> So even now is a great example. So AI
which is first off we're having this
hypothetical conversation about this
hypothetical thing which I think could
happen but it's completely hypothetical.
But assuming the hypothetical is true,
we first have the problem of well, if
this AI is so smart, why can't it fix
this? Because those two things seem
paradoxical.
>> We need to want to fix it.
>> Yeah. Which again, um, which is a
different question. But if it is so
smart, why can't it fix it? Is the first
point. The second point is even now are
we not having quite a meaningful
conversation like about this problem?
Like is this not an example where this
hypothetical AI solved everything yet it
hasn't solved meaning and we're now
constantly talking about how we're going
to get more meaning for human? I don't
think that the the problem is
necessarily that meaning would be
impossible to access, but that if you
make meaning harder to access, you end
up with some pretty gnarly outcomes. In
the same way as it's not impossible to
eat healthily, but it is harder to not
be fat in a calorie dense, high
processed food environment. And if you
make it a meaning oasis, a me it's
sparser to get to meaning, uh, then it
makes life harder for everybody to find
that. Can I ask a dumb question?
>> Yeah.
>> Is it how to open the toothpaste?
>> I was I was watching you.
>> Send them here.
>> Here we go.
>> Back to the back to the factory. Let's
talk to this copack.
>> Oh my god. Amazing.
>> I I want I have another dumb question
which is how how do most people or
normal people think about meaning? Like
what how do they define it? What is the
underlying element?
>> I think I mean the way that like I don't
know if I'm normal. probably pretty
abnormal, but
I mean I mean I do think that like
meaning may be the wrong term to use
because you can apply it to defining a
term. You could apply it to
>> was this conversation meaningless or
meaningful. Well, yeah, we talked about
a bunch of stuff that we is mutually
intelligible. So like yeah, sure by
definition it's meaningful, but I think
we could say purpose like people feeling
they have a purpose,
>> right? there is a point to what they're
doing or their life in general, right?
Is sort of how I would think. I just I
just the
uh I I mean that's that's if if I had to
put in a placeholder, that's what I
would
>> Western society always attributes, you
know, when you go to a party,
what do you do, Tim?
>> What do you do? Like, you know, this is
a canonical question that people ask.
It's like,
>> "Oh, what do I do?
>> What do you do?" Like, I
>> What do you do at a party? What do you
do when you're out?
>> Yeah, you know,
>> the cocktail party question.
>> The cocktail party question. I I tend to
try to not ask this question anymore,
but I used to. And
>> it's always funny.
>> Say heroin on the dark web is usually
>> There you go. I mean, that would be a
good
>> just amazing gray.
>> They're like, "Okay,
>> it's better than saying podcasting,
>> but like that is
>> pretty similar, actually. It's a job.
the attribute of uh of of western
society to a certain extent with all the
focus on productivity and looking at
your calendar and managing your time and
you know sort of going from meeting to
meeting to meeting and then having a
full schedule and organizing you know a
meet up month one month later with your
friends and putting it on the calendar.
It's so like fascinating because
effectively a lot of people treat it as
allocating time
>> and if they allocate time that's what
kind of we're people are trying to do
and often times going back to this the
reason why I asked what you do is a lot
of the meaning elements for individuals
is tied to
their craft
>> their job their their sort of
livelihood. Is it possible to have
meaning without resistance? Because I
was thinking about the chess example
that you were talking about, but part of
the reason that the game of chess is
meaningful is that you're meeting
resistance. Even if the resistance is of
another player and not the best player
in the world, that would be a computer.
>> But part of that
>> requires some sort of friction in the
system. There's there's very few things
that I can think of that are meaningful
that are also totally frictionless or
just there is no challenge in it. Going
back to this, like think about
relationships.
We made access to relationships kind of
less friction than ever. You get a
catalog of individuals. Browse through,
find the next person, onto the next.
Wow. I mean, you've created sort of an
abundant layer on what was previously
scarce.
>> No.
>> And then you have Grinder, which is
postabundance.
>> Postabundance. Yeah. There you go.
>> Have you guys heard about sniffies?
>> No. No. I don't know what's
>> it's like a new gay sex anonymous sex
app.
>> Okay. How are they innovating on
Grinder? What went wrong?
>> This is what I know cuz I have some
friends.
>> What were they serving? What were they
serving that the Grindup app wasn't?
>> How do you spell that, by the way? Is it
>> exactly what you can I've got to end
this podcast.
>> Match phones ping a second. Hold on.
>> Match Group just put in $100 million
into the app. Um and it's growing like
crazy. People don't talk about the I
used to have this thing that if one of
the reasons why it was never discussed
in parliament or never discussed in
Congress um was who owns Pornhub what's
the name uh name of the company is it
MindGeek Canadian
>> Mine Geek had whilst whilst the Congress
was talking about the monopoly that
Google had that Meta had mine had the
most absurd monopoly of the pornography
industry which you'd argue there's a
free market solution that Only Fans came
along and good old Only Fans fixing the
democratizing point.
>> But another example is the dating apps.
If you look at who owns all the dating
apps, I'm pretty sure Match I'm pretty
sure they own Match, Tinder, Hinge. I
don't know if they
>> No, no. Bumble's public.
>> Okay, so Bumble's separate.
>> Rya, maybe. Uh
>> Rya's separate, too. Match Group owns
everything except for Rya and Bumble,
right?
>> It's crazy that they're allowed such a
monopoly on what is now modern dating
and nobody discusses it because it's
sort of icky. It's hard to def the
market's so difficult to define in some
sense.
>> Those apps are also really struggling
saying recently that you Bumble is going
to have my AI avatar date your AI avatar
and then it will feed that back up.
>> Did you see there was an interview she
just did like last week or whatever and
she's like this is the end of the swipe
era and Bumble's introducing this sort
of AI matchmaker or whatever.
>> Jared, you ever considered that you
might have a drinking problem? I don't
consider a lot, Chris.
>> Well, you drank an entire case of
Athletic Brewing and Coco last night.
>> But they're non-alcoholic.
>> And that's not a problem.
>> Sorry, man. I I just kept chugging. Wait
for the regret to creep in. Never
happened.
>> See, most people like Jared don't want
to change what they drink. They just
don't want the next day to be a complete
write-off. And that is why I'm such a
huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co. They
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Bottoms up.
But going back to your point Chris,
which was the idea the capitalism
removes friction, right? Like the idea
is that you have this
invisible layer in society sort of that
is that is fixing supply and demand such
that there's this equilibrium
>> at all times
>> and turns out that reduces friction
because accessibility I mean Door Dash
you can like I I can get an Amazon
delivery in 15 30 minutes or whatever.
>> You got a fancy dress outfit in less
than an hour yesterday. Yeah, cuz that's
what I do on a Sunday.
>> Needed a costume. needed a costume on
these new apps.
>> I mean, it was remarkable. I was
>> I need a furry with a cape
>> and then went straight on to Whistler or
whatever. It's Yeah, I was in I was in
um I was in like a Carmel and I didn't
have a bathing suit because people were
going to the pool or whatever. It was
like, "Oh, I can just Door Dash it
>> in 30 minutes and somebody will bring me
a bathing suit because I didn't have and
that's that's remarkable." And I think
going back to this, it's like, yeah,
obviously I think it reduces value of
things when the the friction goes down.
I do think a great example is uh Winston
Churchill. Um I posted this the other
day. Churchill's biography is so good.
Like you go Jesus Christ did this man um
the big I think it's Andrew Roberts uh
Churchill biography. First off, Jared,
could you pull it up how many times
Winston Churchill nearly died? He
outbeats a cat. Like the number of I
think he almost drowns. He gets the
terminal velocity of he gets he gets run
over. But Churchill used to and famously
a sufferer of depression as he called a
black dog.
>> He used to plant uh sorry he used to lay
200 bricks per day for a a significant
period of his life just to keep himself
busy.
>> What was he building with this 200
bricks?
>> Apparently apparently he wasn't actually
that good. So the stories that the
actual players came in afterwards but he
would always do Yeah, you can have a
look. So here we go. like yeah he
battlefield dangers in Cuba, India,
Sudan and South Africa escaped from yeah
he was he escaped from the bore prisoner
war camp frontline combat in World War I
got hit by a car
>> believed he was preserved for a purpose
felt he was walking with destiny
>> well Winston Churchill famously said
when he was a I believe a teenager that
I will save Western civilization which
is up there with John D Rockefeller
saying I will become the richest man
ever to exist called the shots but for
every Churchill for every Rockefeller
there's a thousand decades massive
survival in Newcastle right All right.
So, I I got in trouble, speaking of the
UK, uh I got in trouble for comparing
the UK to where it would rank if it was
a state. And I thought that this was a
relatively innocuous thing to say
because me and George both [ __ ] on the
UK quite a bit. You know, you're allowed
to. You're allowed to. As immigrants,
having moved from your own country,
you're allowed to sort of cast a SP.
Well, this is why I left, so to speak.
We were the second in the world in
millionaire exits not long ago, second
only to China, who's got, you know, like
30 times the population or something.
So, uh, I decided to post this chart and
this chart explains if the UK was a
state where it would rank on the list.
Here it is. If the UK were a US state,
where would it rank among 50 states? So,
life expectancy first, lowest homicide
rate first. Lowest gun deaths first.
Lowest prisoner population first.
Healthc care coverage first. Paid
maternity leave first.
>> Lot of high numbers.
>> Statutory paid holiday first. Years in
education first. Lowest road deaths
first. Lowest drug deaths second.
minimum wage third, pupil performance
fifth, environmental performance fifth,
human development index ninth, lowest
obesity 10th, and GDP per capita 51st.
>> Uh,
>> what do you what do you attribute that
to?
>> Well, I mean,
>> 51st.
>> Uh, the fact that it's 51st, the fact
that the US just absolutely rules when
it comes to capitalism.
>> You guys are like Floyd Mayweather.
Would would most countries I know that
the UK is not Europe, you know, Brexit
is Brexit, but like would would other
would countries in Western Europe also
look like this in terms of GDP per
capita? Probably, right? I I would guess
so. Well, I mean, what people on the
internet got mad at me for is, well,
these are stupid things to judge.
Obviously, you've got the lowest gun
deaths because you cucks gave up your
guns. Uh the paid maternity leave
doesn't matter when this thing the
statutory paid holiday is pointless
because the level of productivity the
road deaths are because you don't have
big enough roads or something. The drug
deaths don't matter because you've got
no cool drugs. The minimum like there
was there was basically an American
excuse for every single one of these. Uh
even the lowest obesity. Um, and I was
like, it was just surprising to me cuz
for the most part, British people are
very prepared to laugh at Britain, very
prepared to point and we very British
thing.
>> We've I've done episode I've done entire
episodes on this is what's wrong and
this is what's wrong and this is what's
wrong and this is what's wrong. But as
soon as you begin to compare the US to
the UK and in some areas because oh the
whole joke here is that there's lots of
things that we're
ranking better than the US in apart from
one of the most important things which
is how much [ __ ] money we make.
>> Uh and yeah they're selective but
>> sing it.
>> Huh?
>> You can sing it if you want.
>> Sing what? God save our gracious
king. God save us.
>> Right. So,
>> uh I just got in a lot of [ __ ] and I was
surprised. I thought that Americans
would be able to uh take this with a bit
more humility.
>> I do tend to think the Americans
>> also humility.
>> Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, lowest drug deaths
is I mean like why
>> America will be lowest obesity at some
point very soon
>> with the advent of GLPs and
>> they're going to be someone I saw this
thing the other day that um read a true
tide is going to be one of the most
successful drugs in history
>> for sure
>> they're one of the most widely used
drugs.
>> Uh Scott Galloway has the uh idea he
says it's the best America is the best
place to earn money and Europe's the
best place to spend money.
>> Yeah. Well, the UK is a wonderful
country to be poor in and a horrible
country to be rich in. And America is a
great country to be rich in and a
horrible country to be poor in,
>> which is kind of interesting. If the um
the value of the dollar goes up, it's
American productivity, GD GDP or
whatever goes up, then it's Americans
will go and spend it to Europe, right?
And get the best value for the bang for
the buck or if you will.
>> Yeah. I do I mean I I do think uh the UK
is is is the greatest the country of all
time. I do think that's like a fact. Um,
but America's America's going through
its golden age right now.
>> Just we're living on borrowed time,
mate. You know my position on this. I
think that we're living on borrowed
time. And this is seen uh nowhere more
clearly than the arrests countries with
the most arrests for posting on social
media in 2023. United Kingdom 12,183
uh coming in at nearly double second
place which is Bellarus with 6,205.
uh and Russia is down with 400, China
with 1500. Might be some reporting
problems in a couple of those countries,
but uh that number which is from the
times, it was a times a great
>> of social enforcement isn't returning
there to be part of
>> 12,000
arrests for posting on social media in
2023. And that number is from the Times
with Freedom House uh stats. So that's
legit.
>> Mhm.
>> 12,183.
And that was one of the most common. How
many people uh like where would you rank
if it was uh the number of people that
have been and I'm like also first
actually so
>> yeah we have made some mistakes over the
years Alan Shuring
>> Oscar Wild yeah
>> not good we don't treat our gays well no
>> we haven't
>> Alan Carr's pretty good
>> treated well yeah Douglas Murray treated
relatively well
>> I had this because I I I find now that
every time you bring up some negative
about the UK I'm going to bring up
something positive to counteract it um
like the angel and the devil or the
north the northeast and the northwest
which is I was back home um in London,
central London and I was walking around
these beautiful buildings in London
and I used to live in a house that's
older than America
>> and some of the architecture that exists
in the UK like New York has some quite
like the New York City library is
beautiful. It feels like you guys have
stolen that from us. And even the uh the
Statue of Liberty is from France, right?
>> But like a a lot of the architecture in
the US, my friend summarized it great,
which is everything looks like the back
entrance. SO EVEN THE FRONT LOOKS LIKE
WHAT would be the back entrance. And I
feel as a Brit being in America, like my
parents have the most beautiful place in
the world and I'm around this mess of a
house where the people are just it's a
lot more functional right now. But the
UK is the architecture is stunning and
you don't make buildings like that
anymore.
>> We're really grasping at [ __ ] straws
though when we're talking about the AR.
>> Big Ben's good.
>> Big Ben's good.
>> That's the difference between the US and
the UK is that it feels that everything
in the US has or a lot of things in the
US I shall um fix has a functional name.
So I was like why is it called Joshua
Tree? It's like oh it's cuz it has a lot
of Joshua trees or like you have Temp
Street. Why is it 10th Street? Cuz it's
next to 9th Street and before 11th
Street. Whereas Big Ben, nobody really
knows why it's called Big Ben. We think
it was after some bloke called Ben, but
it's not actually been,
>> right? The big big Ben is the It's not
the actual clock, it's the bell that's
inside of it. I think
>> have a look cuz I remember I went down
big rabbit hole and I couldn't find it
out. Yeah,
>> it's remarkable how if you think about
it in the grander scheme of things,
young how young America is. It's like
what is it like a teenager
>> maybe less or something with respect to
civilization or modern civilization and
um turns out everything is kind of
whereas if you were to create a blank
slate of a country and now use the best
of whatever exists and maybe try to
create what Dubai's done right in a way
like you think about Dubai from an
infrastructure standpoint it's just
totally like artificial
>> yeah it's it's absolutely just plowed
its way through the desert and said how
do we want to have our roads how do we
want to have our
I know that there's lots of uh road
accidents that you
can be doing 70 mph and looking at
Google Maps and you're 3 minutes from
your destination which is in the middle
of a builtup area. You're just like
pounding it and then you peel off on
this perfectly modern designed fly over
and then you're deposited outside of the
fountains at the bottom of the Burge or
whatever. Uh so that's kind of
interesting.
>> Whereas if you drive in London it would
take you like 30 minutes. London's okay,
but I mean once you've been to LA,
everything feels
>> totally [ __ ] unbelievable.
>> Well, I mean, you and I have chatted
about this before, but I'm just
increasingly bullish on
neurom modulation, brain stimulation,
and there was there was a piece in the
New York Times
>> um could at home brain stimulation
reduce psychiatry reliance on SSRIs. And
I think part of the framing challenge
around and just to define terms here. So
brain stimulation in this particular
case I believe in that New York Times
piece is referring to something called
TDCS where you can basically use I think
it's TDCS where you can basically use a
9volt battery. It's a headset that you
can wear at home and it's intended to
treat depressive disorder.
And
then you have other types of neurom
modulation. And I use that term because
you might not be stimulating. You might
not be exciting something, you might be
inhibiting something. So that would
include
uh TMS, which I've spent a lot of time
with. So transcranial magnetic
stimulation. So you're using magnets
with different targets depending on what
you're trying to do. And
uh I think those are just it's the very
very it's the model T of what's coming
with with neurom modulation. And I think
there's going to be a lot of
acceleration in the next
2 years. I think it's going to move a
lot faster than people expect.
>> How does it work?
>> Well, so for instance, you might have uh
in say my case, right? So what I figured
out took me my whole life to figure it
out but a few years ago is that even
though I had
kind of been diagnosed and diagnosed
myself prior to that as someone with
some type of depressive disorder uh I
think that it was a combination of a few
things. One was Lyme disease, which is
like very much multiple times verified
real Lyme disease, not like chronic
fatigue masquerading as Lyme disease
from Long Island, which is if you look
at the CDC map, the Center for Disease
Control, it is like
>> bullseye.
>> The is the bullseye uh outbreak, pun
intended, because you sometimes get a
rash that looks like a bullseye.
I think that a lot of psychiatric
conditions are downstream of acute
infections that then led to chronic
neuroinflammation. That's taking us a
little further a field from the point I
was going to make, which is you can use
these magnetic pulses. In the case of
something like accelerated TMS and in my
case, I realized that it was actually
anxiety and rumination. So, a
combination, the DSM constantly changes
in terms of how you would diagnose these
things. Psychiatry is kind of where
surgery was like 300 years ago, I would
say. M
>> right it's very early days but if I do
an f fMRI right so you're getting this
imaging of the brain you identify
targets for say
anxiety like anxious target you can
inhibit or excite depending on what
you're trying to do a target with these
magnetic pulses inter intermittent theta
bursts is what it's called and it just
feels like a light tapping on your head
that's it it's very tolerable and In my
case, you might do, for instance, in the
latest round of what I've done,
take something. It's a drug. So, you
take a neuroplasticity agent beforehand.
And there are a lot of things that can
increase neuroplasticity, but in this
case, it's a somewhat uh antiquated
maybe antibiotic called descloer. So,
you stick it in your mouth, you let it
dissolve for an hour before the stems,
and then you're doing 3 minutes on the
hour or maybe even every half hour for
10 stems. And that's it. And I got 3 to
four months of going from say a eight or
nine out of like generalized anxiety and
just OCD, rumination to like a zero or a
one.
>> Wow.
>> Different people. I mean, those are two
different lived experiences. and
>> and then after 3 or 4 months it it
>> starts to creep back in and then you can
go get say a booster of some type and I
know people with depression specifically
there's a lot more data on depression of
different types who basically similarly
got taken from like I can't move I'm at
home some people are cutting and they go
from like again this I'm not a doctor
I'm not giving medical advice and these
are anecdotes but there are also
published studies that people can look
into there's a great scientist named
Jonathan downer unfortunate name for
someone looking working with someone in
depression but amazing scientist dn
people can look him up uh I think he's
at the University of Toronto
>> and uh you see durability in some people
including the the son of a friend of
mine 18 months
>> so instead of 3 to four months you get
like 18 months and so you compare you
start to wonder it's like all right if
we look at let's just say SSRIs which
are miraculous for some people But the
general
chemical imbalance theory of depression
or anxiety is pretty much thoroughly
debunked at this point, right? You're
not depressed because you have low
serotonin levels by and large. And when
you take pharmaceuticals, I'm sure it's
true with GLP1s. I don't think there's a
very rarely a biological free lunch, but
let's put that aside. Uh with
psychiatric medications typically you
have offtarget effects, right? They're
going to be side effects. They could be
sexual dysfunction. They could be
whatever. They're weight gain. There a
million different uh options and often
they stop working or people don't need
them anymore and then there's no plan
for deprescribing and off-ramping these
people. So they just stay on forever,
right? So the idea that you could use
electricity is super super super
interesting. And
um I think I'm hopeful that it will
displace a lot of
the blunt instrument
approach to using overprescription.
We'll see. I mean it's going to take a
lot of tech innovation which in this
case AI
>> Mhm.
>> go team AI is going to accelerate things
a lot. Certainly already seeing it
>> at like a personal level. What's it like
going from did you say a nine to a one?
Yeah, like an eight or nine to a one.
>> What's that like? Is like a felt
insomnia gone,
>> right? Like instead of taking 30 to 60
minutes to fall asleep, like lay down
and 5 minutes later I'm asleep without
any sleep medication.
>> I mean, that alone is just it's
impossible to overstate the effect that
has on your daily life every day, right?
>> Uh
easier to get over just kind of the
scrapes and bruises of life, right?
Little issues. You basically for me it
was like I find it very useful like if
I'm using the toolkit of stoicism or
mindfulness or whatever like it's a
[ __ ] struggle right it's not native
to my constitution
but after this like oh wow suddenly I
can meditate for 20 minutes and I feel
like I've been doing it for years as
opposed to constantly like
>> slapping my monkey mind on the wrist
right so really tremendous and I I I
what we will see is that you can also
use it I this is not that controversial
but for performance enhancement right
like you can
um I believe you can affect like
handedness trait hypnotizability like
you can and it's not risk-free but
compared to a lot of the mech the the
medications that you might get people
for these conditions the risk profile is
pretty good. It's interesting that you
can have an intervention that makes
other interventions more uh effective.
>> So, if you can do some sort of TMS thing
>> and that makes your trait
hypnotizability more, that means that
you've now opened up the world of
hypnotism.
>> Yeah. You're you're Exactly. So, you're
choosing the right domino to tip over
first,
>> right?
>> And I mean,
>> it's not the time to get into a porn
habit then straight after this. God, god
damn it, I just locked this in. and it
brings
>> Whistler or Tickler or whatever it's
called.
>> Yeah,
>> Tickler.
>> Also a good podcast.
>> Um,
>> this podcast is sponsored by Tickler
>> when I sit down for a good wank on
Pornhub with my athletic brew
>> brewing company.
>> Tech,
>> do you want a man to come around in two
minutes?
>> Man on man.
>> Uh,
life and times Chris. Uh it a lot of I
mean a lot of what I think about is just
sequencing right like there's a lot of
stuff out there off the rack that works
kind of right but if you figure out the
right sequence like you can suddenly
this is the true with language
acquisition too like where most of the
mistakes are made I think is in the
sequencing and you just fix the
sequencing you shuffle things a little
bit you put the right domino in front
and it makes a huge difference and also
this is true with like psychedelics in
the sense that like golan who's at UN uh
UC Berkeley. She used to be at Hopkins,
but her
sort of framework of reopening critical
windows with the use of psychedelics is
very interesting. So, and underground
facilitators have known this for a long
time, but it's like the two or 3 weeks
after a psychedelic, which in this case
would include MDMA, although that's a
longer conversation,
you have the ability, and this could
extend to say stroke patients who are
trying to relearn motor control or
speaking things that
>> typically is limited to a very short,
relatively short window as a child,
right? you can basically reopen the
malleability to develop those things
using these drugs in the subsequent 2 to
3 weeks. So for instance, if you've just
done a bunch of psychedelics, maybe a
very bad time to suddenly do a bunch of
overdosing on porn and and sort of
instilling habits that you would
otherwise maybe come and go, but in this
case could really stick. Like your
Play-Doh is has been warmed up in the
microwave. So, you want to be careful
about those two or 3 weeks afterwards. I
think that could also apply to TMS
potential.
>> I did a a two-sided SGB at the start of
this year. And the same thing is true
for that. It's
>> like, hey man, you've got a window here
where your nervous system is unusually
>> uh absorbent.
>> Yeah.
>> So, treated with appropriate care.
>> Yeah.
>> That was wild though. That that SGB that
I heard,
>> you should explain what that is maybe.
>> Stella ganglen block. So um there is a
bundle of nerves on both sides of your
neck uh that are essentially running to
the rest of your nervous system and you
can get an ultrasound guided anesthetic
injection that goes into it and it
essentially shakes the etch sketch of
your nervous system is a way to think
about it. It is a relatively hard reset
and you do one side and then you do
another. You can't do them both together
because it actually makes half of your
face and half of your throat go to
sleep. So if you were to do both, I
think that you you might die. Um you
certainly wouldn't be able to swallow.
You can't do much stuff.
>> So like problematic.
>> You end up you end up with one side of
your eye is sort of eyelids half closed
and speaking is a little bit difficult.
Anyway, I did one side one day, one side
on the other with Matt Cook at Bio Bio
Reset, who's kind of the number one in
America for this. And um it was
fascinating. Really, really fascinating
experience.
>> Would you do it again?
>> Uh I would. Yes.
>> What were the benefits?
Uh it was an interesting
an interesting slate clean of some
nervous system buildup. So just
agitations
uh the sort of ambient buzzing that you
often have rumination reduced. Uh it was
it was very interesting. But I think the
the thing that's always fascinating to
me because you've got a felt sense of
how this thing impacted you. And because
our felt sense is so subject to did I
sleep well? Am I in a good place with
this person? Have I got the you know
how's business going?
What's happening in my life? But when
you see in data too and because I track
everything with Whoop, it was a 30%
increase in HRV.
>> I was going to ask you about HIV.
a 30% increase in HIV overnight and that
held for I mean I'm what 3 4 months now
after it started to tickle back down now
but uh that held for a long time and uh
resting heart rate also did the same not
quite as much but it was basically a 30%
change in HRV and that stuck about for a
while um and they do this it's a
one-stop shop for uh PTSD in soldiers
it's really aggressive uh intervention
for guys that are like super super super
struggling and it
It just gives you a little bit more room
to breathe. And I was I was interested
in it and I trust Matt, the guy that did
it, so I was like, "Okay, you mentioned
before um risks
>> with the the the TMS type stuff. What
What are some of the risks?"
>> Uh generally very low. I mean, I would
say that again, not a uh not a PhD or
doctor. Don't play one on the internet.
So do your homework, talk to your
professionals. But uh my understanding
is that well I can give you my personal
example right uh occasionally
in the case with my target with my brain
>> uh after the treatment you can have
what's almost like a rebound
exaggeration of symptoms for a short
period of time which is pretty
unpleasant
>> where you might have insomnia for a few
days which I did I've had that twice
>> and you've you've done this twice. No,
I've done it probably five or six times
and it's it's not it has not worked 100%
of the time which is very frustrating.
It's part of the reason why and I'm
supporting uh a nent brain stimulation
lab here at UT Austin um getting
involved with a couple of the companies
because I want to like I actually know
these machines and I've talked to the
technicians and I've talked to the
scientists and I'm like I can actually
be very I think helpful here. So, I'm
hoping to figure out how you can make
that much more reliable. It's also just
pure self-interest, right? I want to be
able to use this.
>> And I also want to figure out how to get
durability out further, right? Instead
of three to four months, it's like,
look, if it's one day every quarter like
and it goes from a nine to a one,
fantastic. But if it only works once out
of every four shots, then that sucks.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh in in in a lot of respects. So some
of the side effects the insomnia that I
mentioned uh in very very rare cases
people will get uh temporary tinidis
they'll get like a ringing
>> uh these are these are all pretty
uncommon uh and I should say that the
using this for generalized anxiety
disorder OCD etc is very much tip of the
spear stuff. So the sample size is not
very large. The with the depression
there's much more data and you can go on
PubMed or elsewhere. Consensus app is
another uh decent op option if you want
like an AI interface
>> and look at the published papers. Um
they're right there for you. Um
if you are like smacking down your
sympathetic nervous system. Okay, this
is the perfect place to talk about this
on a p large podcast. Um,
after my first effective TMS treatment,
the first one that worked, I could not
ejaculate for like 2 weeks. And I
[ __ ] lost it. You can imagine. I'm
just like
I'm like, is this a good news bad news
situation? Like, yeah, good news, you're
not as anxious. Bad news, you're never
going to ejaculate again. I was like,
what the [ __ ] And the doctor's like,
yeah, we've never seen that before. I
was like, oh, fantastic. Uh but
eventually mechanistically he was like
it could be a dosing problem where we're
basically we dialed down the volume on
your sympathetic nervous system too much
because
>> parasympathetic to get erect sympathetic
to come
>> yeah they say point and shoot
parasympathetic
>> sympathetic damn
>> yeah and I was like okay well maybe we
try a lower dose which I think is part
of the reason why it didn't work for me
because I try I was like hey if that was
at the time that was five days and I was
like
>> I really didn't enjoy those two weeks
So, let's try
let's try two days. I'm a big fan of a
jagling.
You know,
>> sounds like we found the
>> uh
>> Yeah. Yeah. You need to get on Whistler.
>> So, I need to get
>> tickler.
>> Uh yeah.
>> Uh my podcast is accepting sponsors.
Tickler. Um so,
>> then I tried two days, nothing. Right.
Then I tried three days uh a few months
later, nothing. Right. And then uh
eventually got back to 5 days, still
nothing.
>> But then went back to adding the the
descarerian this plasticity agent
beforehand. one day boom and I was like
okay
>> now that is when I became much more it's
called the one it's just called one day
protocol
>> and Jonathan downer who I mentioned is
one of the if not the sort of innovator
in the space behind that along with um
Don vaugh and some other people but
that one day when that worked I was like
now this is interesting because
currently
the insurers are slowly coming around
but all this stuff a lot of innovation
starts with people with money spending
way too much money.
>> Right.
>> Right. That's just the way it is. Right.
That's true with electric cars. It's
true with Uber. It's true with a million
different the the early generation
iPhones, right? Didn't even copy and
paste. Are you [ __ ] kidding me?
Right. Uh these early adopters who have
money and they're willing to spend it.
Like the accelerated TMS protocol, some
of the early rounds that I did, it's
like all in 30 grand out of pocket. I
mean, it's expensive.
And when it got down to one day, I was
like, okay, now it's about reducing sort
of unit cost and increasing throughput
with these devices. Because putting
aside the out-of- pocket cost,
>> a lot of people, they cannot take 5 days
off of work to do this.
>> Y,
>> but once you get it to one day, now I'm
like, okay, that just went from a very
small sort of addressable patient
population to a much larger. still too
expensive, but let's try to work on
getting it down. And that's just TMS,
right? You have other things like
focused ultrasound that might be
interesting for different types of
addiction, for instance, where you could
actually get enough penetration that you
would hit you could hit the nucleus
cumbent and other anatomical structures
associated with chemical dependence.
It's like, okay, this is very, very,
very interesting.
>> Who's the best company in America for
this at the moment?
>> I mean, there there are a couple of
really good ones. Um the the two older
ones are uh that have the most uh kind
of time on the market are Brainsway
which is uh out of Israel. Very good
machines. Um it's a it's a publicly
traded company. Full disclosure I you
know invested in them when they were
public traded company. Uh, Mag Venture
has a device as well which I've used and
then the company that I'm involved with
is called AMPA and they that is the
smallest form factor and the people
behind it develop the one day protocol
>> and
uh I think their sort of
the trainability of that device instead
of taking weeks or certainly instead of
taking weeks let's just say to train a
technician properly you can do it in a
few hours and it's something that fits
in the trunk of a car like a Corolla as
opposed to being the size of a
refrigerator. And I think they're really
otherwise it wouldn't be involved very
well positioned to finally scale this
treatment to millions of people instead
of a hand like a few thousand.
>> Mhm. Um, so those like all three of
those are on the market and the lowest
cost would certainly be AMPA, but all
these devices either
health
>> um and we'll see. We'll see. I mean, I
am I'll be
I mean, not just because I'm involved
because it took me a long time. I did a
[ __ ] ton of due diligence. Um, I don't
think a lot of folks don't realize like
how much due diligence I do before I put
something in my newsletter or whatever.
Like
I guess this is OCD like harnessed when
I am in full throttle
>> being used very well. Wait, being
friends with you is is highly useful in
situations like this. In the same way I
went to go and get LASIK
>> in the UK. Uh, Ali Abdal, productivity
dude, British guy, um,
>> ex is a doctor, right? Was an MD or the
equivalent of an MD, GP in the in the
UK. And um I knew that he'd got LASIK
and I was like, "No one's done more
research about who's the best uh
obstitrician
operator in in all of the UK messaged
Ali and he's like, "Yeah, I spent three
weeks speaking to all of my friends and
doing all of the reviews and looking at
the the particular the particular
machines." I was like, "Okay, who was
that?" And he introduced me and it's
funny. This is good. I just get to
speedrun all of the work that you did.
canary down the mine.
>> I'm at the end of the guy in the human
centipede, but I'm benefiting.
>> Yeah, you want to be first in line.
>> No, I'm I'm at the end, but it gets
better progressively as it goes through.
>> Yeah,
>> that's cool, man. I'm I'm glad that it's
I'm glad that it's helped. It's
exciting.
>> It's it it is exciting. I mean and I
mean I think it's I think it's saying
something when you know as somebody
who's been so active in funding the
science related to psychedelics and
psychedelic assisted therapy since 2015
that in the last 3 years I've done
almost almost no psychedelics. It's been
purely focused on the neurom modulation.
I think it's that important. Uh we'll
see because a lot for a lot of people
like psychedelics are nuclear power for
the psyche. Like you just they are not
suitable for all people. There are
plenty of people I would carve out for
exclusion from
>> many times you end up with a Chernobyl
or a Fukushima.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's just it's it's a lot
squirrelier. It is u you need to be
really careful with that stuff. And it
has to just not being able to come.
>> It has its place. Yeah. Can I zoom in
more on this? Yeah.
>> What was that like at the end of a few
weeks? You know, you said you know you
said you went from a nine to a one. Did
you hit a minus seven?
>> No. No, I didn't. I mean, I was
fantastic.
>> I was pretty I was pretty Fukushima.
>> Yeah, I was pretty
>> I was uh understandably concerned.
>> Had you have known that it was going to
end after two weeks, presumably you
would have just been the fear was this
is going to be
>> forever. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So now
the
>> but you couldn't feel the anxiety.
>> But but but interesting interestingly
for for like the every time it has
worked for me I've had that side effect.
But now I know that there's an end
point. So don't freak out
>> and it's fine.
>> Yeah. You just know that you're going to
get a couple of really good weeks where
you're kind of like a stallion.
>> Babe, I can just, you know, don't worry
about me.
>> How do you um I had a question for you.
You know, on on the other side of the
spectrum, have you seen these devices
that stimulate your vag nerve or
whatever? Yeah, I know. I know a lot
about
>> them. What are your thoughts on those?
Like
>> most of them are bunk.
>> Are they?
>> Yeah. Uh there there's um scientist you
might want to have him on at some point.
He's incredible. Uh named Kevin uh
Tracy. He is the most credible. He wrote
a book called The Great Nerve. He's the
most credible
publicly
and not really u educating scientist
credible very highly published uh
scientist who talks about this. Uh most
of the
non-invasive vag nerve stimulators or
that are purported to be Vegas nerve
stimulators don't don't actually hit it
the right way. Um and they're they're
neck based, right? And then there's
earbased
>> um the neck TBD but uh there are they've
been cleared FDA cleared for I think
it's either migraines or cluster
headaches.
>> Yeah.
>> Some people seem to benefit. I had a
friend who tripled his HRV using a neck
based device. I think it was either true
Vega or it was the prescription
equivalent of True Vega
>> and it worked really well for him. This
can be pretty
>> I' I've used them. I had a friend I was
talking to. I I suffer from migraines.
Yeah.
>> And um
>> so I have to carry around medication all
the time and um somebody told me about
these things and they were like okay it
has all these benefits of like HRV you
know increase of HRV all sorts of stuff.
It's a temporary state if you will but
ultimately
>> you just use it daily. It's like a few
minutes in the morning a few minutes at
night.
>> Yeah. It's kind of reset the nervous
system. That's kind of the marketing
terminology that they've been utilizing.
>> Yeah. I mean really it's
what it's doing is it's stimulating the
vagus nerve which is really like two
transatlantic cables on either side.
It's like 100 roughly 100,000 fibers on
either side
>> and it it intervates
>> everything just about
>> organs, GI tract, etc. And when you
stimulate it, you can
um
guess the right way to put it activate
isn't quite right, but something called
the inflammatory reflex.
>> And so it can be applied to things like
rheumatoid arthritis, different
autoimmune disorders, can be applied to
something like asthma attacks. Um it's
very very very interesting. Um so it
could be worth looking into for you,
right? The the neck based devices tend
to also activate the superficial muscles
of the face. So
>> pulls your face down. It's
>> depends how high you turn it up.
>> Yeah, it depends on how high you turn it
up, but it can be a little
uncomfortable. The earbased devices
>> you use, you say you've used No, I
somebody recommended me the earbased
device.
>> Most of the earbased devices are not
actually in the right place.
>> Got it.
>> It needs to be very very very precise.
Um there's it's called the Simba Koncha.
It's going to be hard to see. It's right
here kind of where this fold is. at the
bottom of that inside like right there.
>> Most of the devices being sold on the
market, including devices that have lots
of fancy names and lots of fancy
institutions on the website, they're not
in the right place. And a [ __ ] ton of
money behind some of those companies.
>> Yeah. A very few fibers make it to the
ear. Got it.
>> Um I've got a couple of things. I had a
few things sent to me. I had one that's
a handheld device with the two-prongong
and you can kind of just stick it on
like you want
>> just tase yourself.
>> Yeah. like that. And then uh there's a
pair of headphones that have a lug that
comes down and sits here. And um
obviously that one's way way more
convenient. But there's some weird stuff
with that. You've got to lubricate the
end of the adapter because it needs to
be able to have quite a smooth surface
to be able to So you have to change the
again Whistler. Uh you have to change
the little heads out on this thing and
put that in. I I didn't do it
consistently enough to be able to say
whether or not it was effective. Yeah. I
think I I think for for migraines it's
worth looking into.
>> What's your uh migraine manifestation?
Do you have aura with it?
>> Oh my god. Yeah.
>> Which one?
>> Um what
>> what do you mean which one?
>> Alactory visual. It's visual.
>> Visual.
>> And it'll come on and I can I I've had
these since I was 5 years old and people
were like the [ __ ] is going on? I I
didn't even know. And yeah, you get
these auras. It's like almost as um
you're on like an acid trip and every
bit everything just looks blurry but
moving in in a weird way and then and
then after a while if you don't take
medication during that period um
>> then it kicks in.
>> Then it kicks in.
>> What what do you take? N
>> uh sumatript.
>> Has one just kicked in?
>> Yep.
>> Oh [ __ ] Sorry.
>> It's No, no, it's all good. It's I don't
even know. I think I I typically track
it with um it's either lighting.
>> Yep. um it's environmental like weather
changes weirdly enough or the last
element of it is either I have caffeine
or uh wine without any food
>> right
>> and it's it's really fascinating because
you know they they ask you to keep a
diary of your day and to figure out
retro retroactively what caused it
there's no other mechanic and it's so
people don't know why people don't know
for what reason people some people think
it's autoimmune some people think it's
not and it's a fascinating Um, so I have
to carry medication all the time and I
was recommended this.
>> Yeah. This So the the prescription
version of True Vega spelled T R U V A G
is called Gamma Core.
>> Got it.
>> G- A M M A C R is FDA cleared in the US
for both acute treatment of migraine
pain in adults and prevention of
migraine episodic and chronic. Uh few
practical points real the effect
evidence is real but modest compared to
top tier migraine medications like CGP
inhibitors. uh appears to work best for
people who treat attacks early, migraine
with aura, patients who want to reduce
medication use,
those who can't tolerate tryptoins and
CGPS,
>> right?
>> Speaking of those devices, by the way,
have you guys seen there's some
companies that are being um now that
there's sort of reinvention of input
into computers. So, for example, less
keyboards, more voice, more like natural
types of interactions with with
technology and devices in general. Um,
there are these devices that are coming
out. One of my friends demoed this to
me. I think Apple just acquired a
company where you just put sort of a a
small device that listens in this sort
of region and um without you actually
saying anything, it can detect um
you know as if you were talking.
>> Makes sense. roughly. It's it's
remarkable and and um you can imagine a
lot of scenarios with this as as
technology and the input layers become
much more natural, much more um
conversational. Um and you know, you
don't have these affordances to speak
all the time where imagine that device
can effectively read what you want to
say without you ever having to say it.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and it lives roughly in this region,
can detect all this.
>> Any idea why it's sat there to detect?
Is it as if you're moving your mouth but
not talking?
>> I'm not sure. Let let me let me just
sidebar real quick. Uh
>> just because I want to make a safety
point. We're talking about the relative
safety profile of brain stimulation or
neurom modulation with these devices.
>> That does not mean anyone should DIY
this stuff. You can the brain factory on
your head.
>> The bra the brain is incredibly
sensitive. If you hit the wrong target,
you can [ __ ] yourself up
>> or make your symptoms a lot worse. So,
do not DIY this. Go to a decent clinic
for people who want to explore it. I
have no stake in any of these. Acacia
clinic in Sunnybell in California.
Salience, which I think is in Dallas.
They may have other locations. Uh Owen
Mure M UI R who's in New York. There are
a couple of clinics that I know have
very good reputations, but like work
with somebody who knows these. No 9 volt
battery and a one of those
>> pads that people use for their abs.
>> I was about to go home battery.
There's also it's not I don't think
indicated for migraines. It's I'm pretty
sure it's specific to RA to rheumatoid
arthritis, but Setpoint Medical has an
implant about the size of a small
omega-3 that they It's like an
outpatient procedure in the neck and
then it just stimulates like twice a day
the Vegas nerve.
>> No way. Yeah.
>> That was on the front front. It was on
the front cover of the New York Times
the day that I interviewed Kevin Tracy
who was involved with the development of
that device. Yeah.
>> Wow. And so they implant it directly
into your neck. Yeah.
>> How do you recharge it? Induction.
>> Uh I'm not sure exactly.
>> Yeah. I mean it does get a lifetime.
>> It's magnetic charging on your neck.
Could you imagine? only uh device that
kind of reads your thoughts. One thing
you you um discover as you get more into
meditation is just how sometimes your
thoughts aren't even you. Like the
ultimate example, even if you've not
experienced any form of meditation,
would be like a song that's stuck in
your head.
>> Yeah.
>> I wonder how the device would differ
between a song that's stuck in your head
and something that you actually want it
to do. Cuz I remember a great meditation
technique. I'm just imagining my
ruminating given a microphone
in my ear.
>> I think the distinction being that
there's sort of this concept of mind
reading and or expression of a thought
and the expression of a thought is
typically you know when you when you're
starting to speak it roughly you would
have to
>> it's not purely like a thought reader in
some sense you would have to have an
intent associated with it. To going back
to your previous point on devices
though,
>> my thesis is that the device that you'll
probably wear when you interact with AI
or whatever if you want to has not been
invented yet.
>> Mhm.
>> And it will have this combination of
input output that is much more um less
visible. Didn't Didn't OpenAI claim that
they were going to have a three product
or something? And obviously they've got
Johnny IV in the guy that made the the
iPhone, the original iPhone. And
>> then they bought his company which was
called Yeah. IO. And then there was this
very cool sexy video of him and Sam in a
totally not fake bar somewhere
>> having a conversation.
>> Uh I think it'll be the AirPods.
>> Yeah, they're they're actually building
a phone apparently.
>> Okay. Um, they said three different
things and one of them is something that
no one's ever seen before, which makes a
lapel thing, a little button or
something like that.
>> The AirPod case makes the most amount of
sense cuz we're already using them.
People wear them 24/7. The AirPods are
what's that stat around if the AirPod
was a startup, it'd be like one of the
most eighth in the world. Really? That's
why just just that alone
>> and half that's me contributing to um
should we talk about that? We've never
spoken about this. I've uh see if I blow
it up.
>> Going back to your three devices thing.
I think there's probably one device that
is
an affordance that's kind of listening
and or
>> ask me your Wait, you were a raw dog
that took a deer like let's get rid of
this free advertising.
>> There's this sort of one device that
probably listens to input in some
mechanic or or or tries to process what
you want in possibly a new way. That
could be like a device that's kind of
have a microphone or whatnot. There's
another device where it's like a her
type situation where he's wearing that
earpiece and constantly speaking to it.
>> And then maybe that third device is kind
of this glancible world, right? Where
you have this phone. Um, turns out now,
you know, applications are becoming less
like people are using chat GPT or clawed
for everything, right? Like you go, I
want to set a timer. You can do that in
chat GPT. You don't necessarily need a
dedicated app. Maybe you want one or
whatnot, but the idea of the app
ecosystem
being less valuable than it was before
given
>> Elon's big on this, right? That you he
thinks that all apps are going to go
away and your phone is just going to
create whatever you need whenever you
need it.
>> Roughly. Exactly. And and I think
generally um today it's possible to
build that type of device without having
this ecosystem effect that was necessary
in the past. I wonder if that would open
up uh a hole in the market because at
the moment the dominance has been pretty
tough despite the fact that Apple have
kind of [ __ ] the bed a lot.
>> You know, they the phones have really
started to peter out in terms of the
progress at least from what I notice as
a user. You like, yeah, I can zoom in
15x, I can zoom in 20x and at some point
it's like what? It's a slab of glass and
a combination of things. Like what do
you do?
It's a bit the screen's brighter or
sharper or something, but it's less
noticeable. You remember when it was
what the iPhone 5 to the iPhone 12 and
each time it was a noticeable leap
forward. Almost the same that's been
happening with the the AI models, you
know, that it seems to have started to
at least in terms of noticeable user
experience for me. It seems
>> I think iOS gets worse every time I
upgrade. the the keyboard at the moment
just [ __ ] sucks.
>> What I'm
>> um But my but they do have an incredible
war chest.
>> So what do you think against a guy with
a massive pile of money?
>> Well, I'm just what they can do is they
can buy companies. So I'm wondering I
don't know. You have any thoughts on who
they should buy? You know, there's
there's a group of people that think
that Apple's like the smartest company
because they've let the world sort of
play itself out. People spending a lot
of money and they're just waiting to see
where it hits and then effectively um do
what they do best, which is never enter
the market first.
>> Yeah.
>> But be the best.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> It's exactly what happened to
>> cell phones or smartphones. Exactly what
happened to kind of AirPods. There's all
these some some wireless
>> they did with the iPod too. iPod too. Um
yeah, the iPod was the first element of
it, even the computer in some sense. Um
>> plenty of MP3 players.
>> So it's like they've saved all of this
cost for a capax.
>> Um never spent anything like
>> go forth and split test these products
for us, my minions. Yeah, exactly. A ton
of other companies.
>> They effectively let others do the R&D
work to a certain extent and then refine
that world potentially. And you know,
>> there's an argument to be made that that
is a
>> you don't need to be first, you just
need to be. They also make what 20
billion per year from Google
>> Google search for free.
>> So Google keep going up and up and up.
So yeah, they're not going to
>> dabble with touching that which is why
>> what we haven't discussed is how much
revenue you contribute to Apple on an
annual basis. I think I'm on my um
17th AirPods. Um a lot
>> because they're because they're a
slippery bar of soap.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, it's more I've
had a few stolen. I' I don't like having
things on me as well, so I'll just like
leave things. So, like the amount of
times I've left them at Deans, but one
just a gift to the universe over and
over again.
>> And the most frustrating thing is to him
is you can see where they all are.
>> So, there's one in particular right now
that's in Cameroon and I can see where
his house is. Right. So, no, no, I still
No, because I'm a sad little man that
I'm not willing to I'm not willing to
find a Cameroon to confront the man, but
I am willing to press the play sound
button.
>> Oh my god.
>> Do it at night while they're sleeping.
>> Yes.
>> Isn't there Isn't there a single AirPod
that's in the uh uh like WHO building?
Yeah, that was that was K's AirPods that
were in the WHO building. Yeah, just one
AirPod was in the single AirPod that he
was playing this sound through in the
WHO building in New York City.
>> There you go. It's just there right now.
Oh, he's in Ghana. He's in Ghana.
>> Oh,
>> there we go.
>> Eight minutes ago.
>> Have you guys ever uh
>> That's That's incredible. But what what
a great I mean I never leave my house
without my AirPods.
>> This is why I think it's power user such
a power user.
>> I keep sounding like a broken record
here, but I assume the device is a
little little pod thing that we have
now. Headphones in, cameras in, but then
it's almost you could have a like a
holographic screen, so people aren't on
these glass screens as much and you can
make it big, make it small. that feels
inevitable.
>> I mean, there is rumor that the next
AirPods, like you said, do have visual
the cameras, and that's that's crazy if
you think about it. You're walking
around, there's sort of two spatially
aware cameras around you.
>> Well, it's kind of like uh what was it?
Dark Knight Returns or Dark Knight Rises
when they had the cell phon.
Yeah.
>> I mean, what do you think Apple's going
to do with that data? I don't understand
how they're going to do the whole
Neurolink thing that you mentioned of
they will read your thoughts because of
the fact that some thoughts I have I
didn't want to have. It wasn't me.
There's this meditation technique I once
sat in which is it's a real cool one.
>> So it sounds like you're pretty serious
in meditating.
>> Yes. Yeah. Um it was originally to fight
off a skin condition and then it ended
up Yeah. Gemini fixed that. So the story
there was
>> I fix your
>> syll the
that's uh non be fixed my
>> is here man
>> sniffer gave me the syphil
>> no um the I had a I had subatomic
driisitis for about 2 years
>> subatomic suboric domteritis
>> basically my face my face would break
out like red and I wouldn't want to go
outside the house so I spoke to a few
different doctors a lot of them
recommended topical steroid creams uh a
lot of them said it was because of
stress so I got deep into meditation I
stopped eating like so such little sugar
that I once flagged I once got diagnosed
with type 1 diabetes. Um which was a
complete false diagnosis
one is pretty hard
>> which is another side story but I won.
Then when I was away I tracked my skin
for years and nothing would work.
Nothing would work. So when I was away
on holiday I just uploaded the file to
Gemini and it just
>> the file you mean a photo?
>> Yeah. know all the photos that I have
and it just said, "Oh, just put niserol
shampoo on your face."
>> Oh wow.
>> And it's never it's not had an issue
ever since.
>> So it was fungal.
>> Yes. So the biggest the biggest
recommendation I would give
>> is ketoconazol for people who are
wondering. Yeah.
>> This for dandruff and I do it once
again.
>> This for dandruff.
>> Uh it's also very effective for topical
fungal
>> infection. I did it once every two weeks
now and it's completely
>> [ __ ] crazy.
>> It's completely gone. So any
recommendation at home like a practical
thing would be just upload a photo of
yourself to Gemini or chat GPT and just
say hey based off what you can see with
my skin recommend me moisturizers
recommend me everything and it'll be
better than do you know anything you've
done before
>> what do you use what do you use Gemini
for versus other models
>> I I'm I'm a an LLM [ __ ] Tim like I I
shift
>> he's like the Andrew Hubman of LLM.
>> Yeah I'm shifting each Oh but to sorry I
didn't finish the story. So the
meditation point there, there's a great
question um which I ended up learning
was asking your mind what thoughts going
to come up next
>> and it's like your mind gets a bit it's
almost this Mexican standoff and the
problem with these devices I once asked
myself that and my mind went quiet for 6
seconds and then for whatever reason
there's this former biomunic winger
called Iron Robin and it's just him
checking in on the left foot in my head
and it's like that was that me why is
that there so if I have a neuralinking
device. It's an interesting one of how
does it know what was me versus what's
just my monkey mind doing strange
behaviors.
>> You know, um
>> I can't wait to see the first failed
demos of, you know what I mean? Like
these epic software demo fails. Someone
gets up and it's just like [ __ ] [ __ ]
[ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ]
>> Especially like penis penis.
>> Especially given that the likelihood of
it being Elon to do the first
presentation is quite high. A man with a
mind that I don't think anybody wants to
see broadcast out into public. Did you
see that demo of the uh Cyber Truck
where he was on stage window and he
smashed the window and he's like, "Wait,
that's not supposed to happen."
>> Um,
>> the best film I've watched all year,
it's a British film. It's probably one
of the best like storytelling examples
I've ever heard. So, people will know it
from the Brits award. It was this
horrific incident where Michael B.
Jordan went on stage and somebody
shouted the N-word out and it was this
huge controversial incident. But what
actually happened was it was a guy who
has one of the most severe form of
Tourette's
>> and he was subject of a film.
>> He was subject of a film. So he was at
the bath. So the film is called I swear.
And it's incredible because this guy
grew up in Scotland which is like think
about all the stereotypes you have about
England. Like the further north you get
the more like harsher it essentially is.
>> Yeah. People from Abedine are some of
the most like brutal people on the
planet. So this man grew up with extreme
Tourette's in the 70s 80s England when
nobody knew what the condition was. So
the film's amazing because it's just him
like walking to the shops going fat [ __ ]
and he go and he's just getting the [ __ ]
bean out of him and he can't explain
what it is. So he's constantly getting
into fights. There's a scene where he's
walking his dog and this is real. So
he's walking his dog um across the um
about to go across a busy road and he
loves this dog but there's a car coming
and he goes walk forwards now. And then
he has to grab the dog. He's
>> Tourette's. He's fighting against
himself.
>> Yeah, he's fighting against himself.
It's so good. It's such a good film.
>> Oh, where can you see it?
>> Um I sw if you just search I swear.
>> [ __ ] you. [ __ ] you.
>> So
>> I missed it.
>> [ __ ] you.
>> From Living with Chris. The man's a bit
of a boomer.
>> And I'll often like give him a
recommendation and I'll go he'll go,
"Where can I see it?" And if it's not on
Netflix, he can't get it.
>> No. No. Just Google it. Just figure
That's not fair. That's not that's not
fair and that's not true. But my
response is what can I watch it on
>> and I'll just say Google it.
>> Right. But that's a fair I I feel like
this is a little bit like
>> here's a fantastic new restaurant. Okay.
What streets it on? I just want a little
bit more information. And the fact that
you want me knowing what you know, which
is that you might understand what
streaming service it's on.
>> Saying to me that I have to go and
Google it when you could just say it's
on Netflix and me and Tim this side of
the table.
>> We just expect a little bit more
decorum. You know what I mean?
>> This is why I This is why I want AGI to
come because it gives me
>> So glad you brought me to this [ __ ] All
right. All right. All right.
>> Wait. Going back to the um photo thing.
Do you guys know what people are
utilizing um chatbt and whatnot for when
they upload photos of themselves? Looks
maxing.
>> Oh, that's interesting. Do you know
codes?
>> What do they what they upload a set of
photos? There's these apps on the app
store too now that kind of do a rapper
experience. But the idea is that
effectively, you know, you upload photos
to to Gemini or Chad GBT and then it
suggests things that you might want to
do whether it's
>> smash your cheekbones with this type of
>> medical procedure, you know, jaw
surgery, um having a symmetric face,
even things like hairstyle make a huge
difference or a beard or whatever.
>> Skip that section. And roughly it's it's
really interesting that people are doing
this because um obviously there's this
huge craze of looks maxing and whatnot
and um turns out huge use case for AI.
>> Dude, check out Codes. I've just sent
this to you Jared. Um co
so look at this. So this is glow up
without surgery. Get your personalized
facial analysis and transformation plan.
So I know the science team behind it.
The science team behind this are
absolutely sick. So look at the guy on
the right and then like you should be
able to do a transition. You see how you
can get the middle of the guy's face.
You should be able to click on it. Yeah,
exactly. So move it all the way to the
right.
>> You was worried about mean intent. Look
at this.
>> And then go to the left.
>> Wow. Got it. So it's like drive by
shooting suspect to soap opera star.
>> Exactly.
>> Uh get more career opportunities, boost
your self-confidence, make a stronger
first impression, improve your dating
life, enhance your quality of life. So
basically it's go uh let me see the one
on the left again.
>> Go the swing it.
She's really attractive.
>> I feel like that's one of those like
Sandra Bulock. Oh, she takes off the
glasses and walks out and she goes from
>> Yeah. You're like, "Wait, the
supermodel."
>> That's all she did.
>> Uh, she's shaped a face. Do it again,
Jared.
>> Show me.
>> Slow it down. Go really slow.
>> [ __ ] hell.
>> Uh,
slow.
>> You know, this is just IRL Facetune,
right? Um,
>> yeah. So, if you There's like Facetune
has all of the Facetune. I don't Do you
guys know what Facetune is?
>> I learned about it from Freyer India a
couple of weeks ago. one of the most it
it came out very a long time ago Israeli
company and u
>> and it's it's just a easy way of
manipulating the way that your face
looks and you know slims your jawline or
whatever gives you way
>> like as in on a photo not not actually
so so it turns out every Instagrammer or
before they post any time people post
photos um they typically went through
the same workflows and facetune was kind
of a um you know just a bunch of tools
that you can utilize. And now with AI,
>> oh yeah,
>> um, holy crap. I mean, the possibilities
are quite limitless. And so, you know,
it can regenerate that photo. And so at
the bottom there are all these like AI
filters and um, people use them so so so
much. And often I I heard this story
where uh one of my friends met somebody
from Instagram and you know they had a
they had all these photos and uh she
looked nothing like herself real life.
>> Well, let me give you this from Freya.
Um when
>> from Freya
>> Freya India is a a girl writer who just
released a book called
>> Girls the Nordic God.
>> Uh she does look a little bit like that
blonde hair. She's like the what would
what's the female equipment of the Uber
mench? Ubering or whatever it's called.
>> Uber.
>> Yeah. Uh she's that um Yeah. She uh she
was telling me that when groups of young
girls are out and they're taking photos
at a party, everybody fights to be the
one whose phone is used to have the
photo taken because that means that
they're the one that's in charge of the
face tuning.
>> Yep.
>> So that they can work on themselves a
little bit more and dial. It's actually
it's actually a huge social phaua if you
>> post a picture where you look good and
the other person doesn't.
>> Stitching that is stitching your mate up
a little bit. You know there's a famous
uh English footballer called Ashley
Cole. Can you just search Ashley Cole
squad photo and this How long is this 10
years? Uh yeah he was when he was at
Roma so it's and he's retired. Do you
want to tell us story?
>> Was just a a squad photo. It's it's one
of those I know it when I see it ideas I
guess. Um, but it's just a football
photo of the entire Roma team and Ashley
Cole, who's this Brit, is like trying to
mingle with these Italians.
Iconic. Yeah. Top left. Cuz he's just
awkwardly leaning on the outside. So
then he gets me'd everywhere.
>> This became one of the biggest memes in
the world.
>> For a long time, it's a team. It looks
like
>> the headline. Scroll down a little bit.
>> Ashley Cole appears to be an outcast in
an incredibly awkward Roma team picture.
The amount of times me and Chris have
been out with like a group of guys and
I'll do the ashy call like two yards
>> just moves off to one side ruins.
Absolutely ruins it. All right, boys.
Let's bring this one into land. You all
rule. Uh Tim, what have you got coming
up? Where should people go to check out
your things?
>> Uh you can find everything at tim.blog.
I'd say that's probably the easiest.
Yeah, check out the newsletter. It's
been going for like 10, 12, 14, god
knows how many years. Five Saturday.
>> What was that one that most recent
article about uh uh self-improvement?
what I learned from however many years
of self-improvement.
>> Ah, yes. Yeah, that was it's called the
self-help trap. What I learned after 20
years of quote unquote Yeah. improving
myself.
>> That's awesome.
>> Yeah, that's a long form that's on the
blog tw 102 pages. tim.blog Friday. Sign
up for the newsletter. A lot of the
stuff that we're talking about like go
back if you want some also another
reason to check out neurosimulation. go
back and look at the Brainsway stock
graph for the last two or three years.
Um, so that type of stuff you'll learn
about before other people.
>> Okay.
>> Not I'm not a registered investment
adviser. I should make blah blah blah
blah lose money. Yeah.
>> Um, no, I appreciate you guys having me
on. Um, our our app is called Sky, Sk.
And it's a fun little experience. It's
kind of a new way to experience your
phone. Um, it's kind of ironic that
we're, you know, I talked about that
having, you know, we talked about the
digital de detox or whatever, but our
goal is to kind of really make you stop
using as much as you would otherwise by
surfacing the things that you might care
about before. Essentially, you don't go
into this doom scrolling world or
whatever. Uh, imagine something that
exists there. Um, it's there when you
need it, it's gone when you don't, and
we don't really have anything else. So,
it's a fun little thing. We couple
people and uh we've got tens of
thousands of people on a wait list right
now. So, we're trying to fulfill that
inference is very expensive, but uh it's
been the time of my life to build this.
I'm I guess I I love technology so much.
Um, and I love interfaces and I love
thinking about the world with respect to
how the future might be in terms of
people interacting with the with the
with the technology in a in a meaningful
way, not necessarily in a um doom
scrolling sort of this world that we've
kind of built. So, I don't know where
we'll go with that, but it's been it's
been an incredible time building. Um,
and uh what a time to be alive. as if
you're if you're any type of builder
today, it is probably one of the most
remarkable times I've ever witnessed.
I'm baffled every day. Um, and so it's
been so much fun. Uh, and uh, we're just
getting started. So, I'm I'm really
excited for that.
>> And at Signal on X with two L's, s i g n
u l if you want to see you call out the
Xbox CEO a little bit more.
>> That's pretty hilarious. I wonder if
she's going to watch this.
>> Signal
sniffies.
>> Sniffies. Sorry, I I need to take that
username from that app.
>> Yeah, match match with me there. Um, my
end high agency.com/books.
If you want to get a breakdown of all my
best books, you told me to do this.
There's going to be a a book breakdown,
a list of a load of different books, but
the personal one of uh Oblamov, a
Russian man from the 18th century who
the first 50 pages are about him getting
out of bed. So, there's there's more
resources like that. Get my best books
and articles. That's it.
>> Heck yeah. All right,
>> let's go.
>> See you next time, everyone.
Yo, cheers, gentlemen.
>> Yes, there we go.
>> Fun.
>> Congratulations. You made it to the end
of a full podcast episode. You are not
so Tik Tok brain that you've completely
dissolved into nothingness.
Why not watch another one right here?
Go on, press it.
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“No One Owes You Patience For Having A Hard Day”

Chris Williamson
Jun 07, 2026
Cognitive Architecture

Meaning & Purpose

Neuromodulation & Mental Health

Societal & Economic Observations

Future Interfaces

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