Actor‑to‑Director Journey, Obsession, and Film Industry Insights

Name: The Brutal Side of Making It In Show Business - Zach Braff
Uploaded: 2026-06-06T15:00:08+00:00
Duration: 1 h 18 min 30 s
Channel: Chris Williamson
Description: Summary and key takeaways on The Brutal Side of Making It In Show Business - Zach Braff — Summary, covering Early Life & Career Beginnings A formative love of
Chris Williamson
Jun 06, 2026
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78 min video
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2 min read
YouTube video ID: JR2vbnw32ro
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A formative love of theater, sparked by a production of Les Misérables, set the stage for an early fascination with performance. Volunteering with a rescue squad later revealed a preference for collaborative, high‑stakes environments and clarified a desire to pursue storytelling rather than emergency response.
The Craft of Directing

Directing feels like conducting an orchestra, with the cinematographer acting as the lead musician who decides lens choice, lighting, and color palette. First Assistant Directors (ADs) keep the schedule moving; their role is notoriously stressful because they must balance creative intent with tight timelines. When a shoot falls behind—whether a five‑day or a 6.5‑day schedule—directors often simplify shots to stay on track. Leadership on set relies on maintaining quality without micromanaging, sometimes using private “special call sheets” to monitor progress discreetly.
The Scrubs Revival

The revival reimagines the original ensemble as senior doctors (attendings) rather than interns, shifting the narrative focus to seasoned perspectives. Avoiding “nostalgia bait” means steering clear of call‑back jokes, allowing new viewers to engage without needing prior knowledge. Stepping into an executive producer and leadership role proved “extraordinarily stressful,” yet the responsibility of guiding a beloved franchise ultimately felt rewarding.
Psychology of Success & Obsession

High‑level performance carries a price: obsessive‑compulsive tendencies, heightened anxiety, and strained relationships often accompany the drive for perfection. The “five to seven interactions” rule suggests that changing a behavioral pattern requires repeated, focused engagements within that range. Obsessive focus acts as a double‑edged sword, sharpening craft while risking personal well‑being.
Industry Perspectives

Acting success resembles a lottery, with rejection forming the everyday reality for most performers. Permissionless media platforms such as YouTube and influencer channels have reshaped content creation, yet broadcast television continues to endure as a stable outlet. The evolving landscape forces creators to balance traditional gatekeepers with new, democratized distribution models.
Takeaways

Early exposure to theater and a rescue‑squad volunteer stint guided a shift from emergency work to storytelling.
Directors rely on cinematographers for visual decisions and on ADs to manage stressful, time‑bound schedules.
The *Scrubs* revival avoids nostalgia traps by focusing on senior doctors, making the show accessible to new audiences.
Obsessive attention fuels excellence but can lead to OCD‑like anxiety and relationship strain, with behavioral change needing five to seven focused interactions.
Acting success is likened to a lottery, while streaming platforms rise, broadcast TV remains a resilient pillar of the industry.
Frequently Asked Questions

What does the "five to seven interactions" rule mean?

The rule states that altering a behavioral pattern typically requires five to seven deliberate interactions focused on the desired change. Repeating the behavior within this range reinforces new habits and increases the likelihood of lasting transformation.
Why is the cinematographer considered the director's primary collaborator?

The cinematographer shapes lens selection, lighting, and color, directly translating the director's vision into visual language. This partnership determines the film’s aesthetic, making the cinematographer the most influential creative ally on set.
Who is Chris Williamson on YouTube?

Chris Williamson is a YouTube channel that publishes videos on a range of topics. Browse more summaries from this channel below.
Does this page include the full transcript of the video?

Yes, the full transcript for this video is available on this page. Click 'Show transcript' in the sidebar to read it.
Helpful resources related to this video

If you want to practice or explore the concepts discussed in the video, these commonly used tools may help.
Directors Viewfinder For Film Production Recommended
A director's viewfinder allows filmmakers to preview framing and lens choices without setting up the camera, helping manage time constraints on set.
Amazon →
Atomic Habits By James Clear
This book provides a framework for behavioral change, aligning with the guest's discussion on shifting life patterns and conscious habit formation.
Amazon →
The Film Director's Intuition Book
This book explores the craft of directing and the collaborative nature of the role, mirroring the guest's insights on leading a film set.
Amazon →
Professional Production Clipboard With Storage
A heavy-duty clipboard helps manage call sheets and production schedules, essential for the high-stress environment of an assistant director or producer.
Amazon →
Links may be affiliate links. We only include resources that are genuinely relevant to the topic.
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Full Transcript YouTube

as somebody that's basically a
philistine and has seen maybe two or
three theater shows in his entire life.
>> Yeah.
>> Of a career of being a spectator and
obviously a person who kind of
understands the art form as well. What
are the ones that stand out to you as oh
this is that was really really special?
Well, I'll tell you lay Rob which is
which which which is a probably a very
common answer for people. I was like 13
years old and I had never really been
moved to tears by art before. I had
never seen
something as as a young person so
beautiful in my life. I was so moved by
the music. I was so moved by the the
stage craft. I was the story was
thrilling. So that was a really seminal
moment in my young life. You know, my
dad had been bringing me to see all the
play. Yeah. I lived in North Jersey. So
my dad would bring me in, you know, it
took 45 minutes and we he loved theater.
He he got me into it. So he would bring
me to see all these plays. A lot of them
were sillies. A lot would go over my
head. Um, but I loved it. And then lay
mis Rob was the first one where I was at
the right age to to feel emotion to have
tears streaming down my face. And that's
when I was like, what is this? This art
form is is something that is so
powerful. And so then I went on to see
like so many productions that both both
musicals and dramas and comedies where
there was just so much joy for me in
seeing it happen live and having it be
different every single time. and the
shared experience with people around you
who are also swiping a tear or laughing.
Uh that that's just something really
magical when it's great. When it's
great, it's just so fun.
>> What about when it's bad?
>> When it's bad, it's really bad. And uh
you know, I never leave an intermission
just because I' I've I'm an actor myself
and I feel too bad to do that. Um
uh yeah, it can be it can be it can be
horrible. Mhm.
>> But um I try, you know, I do I do I do
filter what I'm not I'm not going to see
things totally blind.
>> Not going in blind.
>> I don't go in totally blind. No, that
would be that would be that I'd be lying
if I said I was just going to any random
show. I I definitely go to what I've
heard my friends uh say, "You got to
check this out."
>> I've heard that you wanted to be a
doctor at one point.
>> When I was in high school, there was a
program in my high school with the the
town had a volunteer rescue squad. Um,
I guess uh that that's just the way it
works in some towns. Um, in New Jersey
at least, I can only speak to that is
that the town has a volunteer rescue
squad of people who are EMTs who who
donate their time and there's an
ambulance service on serious calls. The
paramedics come in a separate ambulance
from the hospital. Um, and they had a
program for kids that were 17 and up to
volunteer and get trained and go on
calls. And I went on many calls. um with
the ambulance service and you know
you're mostly doing the grunt work.
You're you're carrying gear, you're
moving the stretchers, uh you're you're
taking blood pressures, but it was
thrilling and uh I think there was a
moment there where I thought, "Wow, what
a what an exciting
career path to be." And not that I could
necessarily stand the education to
become a real doctor um ironically, but
um but maybe a paramedic or maybe um
something in the something in the field.
>> And um
>> and then I just never really excelled at
the classes that you know, biology and
chemistry and and all the things that
you need to be really great at. I I just
didn't have the interest or the skill.
>> The fun bits were fun, but the technical
got in the way.
>> Adrenaline was fun and coming to the
rescue was fun. And um uh I loved all
that. I loved I loved coming to the
rescue. I loved um the adrenaline of it.
Um and and feeling like you helped
people and and you felt really good.
Also, there was a volunteer aspect of it
that I'm sorry that that was important
part of it, too. I was I felt great that
I was doing all of this and
volunteering. In service. Yes.
Interesting. You get the three emergency
services, right? You've got ambulance,
fire, police. There's an issue going on.
The ambulance turns up. Everybody's
grateful. There's an issue going on. The
fire service turns up. Everybody's
grateful and turned on. The police turn
up. People get a little bit suspicious.
Unless you're the very person that needs
it, everyone immediately gets on watch.
And I always think I always feel bad for
police officers. They're doing a thing.
They're still doing a service. And in
many ways, they're in the line of fire.
They're dealing with much more kinetic
situations. I guess fire firefighters,
too. And also I'm sure but you think
[ __ ] like police officers are really you
know they're being shouted at and
there's all of this potential stuff and
they're looking over the shoulders and
and no that that must be hard. It must
be hard to be a police officer when you
look at your fellow you know of the
three branches that you could have gone
down in emergency services like people
sort of clap and applaud and there's a
lot more heroism around that and the
public perception I think of police
officers has had a rough run for the
last decade or so.
>> Absolutely. And there's a lot more
nuance to that profession than fire and
and ambulance.
>> Stop fire, get cat out of tree or keep
person alive as opposed to do one of
like 50,000 million things here.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um but there was a burglary, a home
invasion on my street uh this week and
uh it's scary. I was certainly happy
that they were they were there. home
invasion, like a robbery while
>> there broke in the house and and uh held
this woman and and and and stole her
jewelry and were in no rush to get out
of there. It was scary.
>> That's gnarly.
>> Yeah, it was gnarly.
>> Yeah. I um It's an interesting one
thinking about what jobs you would do if
you weren't doing what you did. I was
thinking about this the other day. Have
you obviously you maybe didn't have the
chops to do the
>> I didn't have the I didn't have the
interest in in in uh in in school enough
to go to get into medical school or the
SAT scores or the or the grades or I
mean you really have to love school. Um
I love design. I you know I think I'm
really into uh architecture and design
and I think that kind of overlaps with
what I do as a director because you're
hiring and collaborating with extremely
talented crafts people who are the best
at what they do and you're saying I have
this rough idea will you help me execute
it and then you put together this team
of insanely talented in the case of film
cinematographers and production
designers and costume designers and
actors and everyone comes together and
they help you execute. And uh and and
and to me, if I if I wasn't allowed to
work in entertainment for some reason,
that's something that really lights me
up because I I I do love um architecture
and design.
>> Who's someone on a film set or on a on a
production that makes a massive
difference that most people from outside
of the industry don't even consider?
the cinematographer, I mean, I think is
the is the number one uh collaborative
person the director has. That is his his
or her right-hand person.
>> What's that role for people that don't
understand? For people that don't know,
um,
the way that this everything is
photographed, the the the lens choice,
the way just for example, this interview
is being lit was lit by a talented
cinematographer who chose where to put
these three lights and and how does how
what lenses he was going to put on the
cameras and how in post-production it
was going to be colored. So much of that
makes a difference. I would imagine a
lot of layman uh think that that's all
the director. the director is sort of
the conductor of the orchestra.
>> If the crew is the orchestra, the
director is the conductor of the
orchestra. And if the first violinist
is, let's say, the most important person
in the orchestra, uh, I would say that's
the cinematographer. And the director is
there going, I can't play the violin
like that. I can't play the bassoon like
that. You guys are the best at what you
do. My job is to go a little more of
this, a little more, a little less of
that. And um
and yeah, the other position that I'm
sure most people not in the business uh
I'm sure most people in the business
don't know anything about is the first
ad who is the first assistant director
who's running the whole set. um in
theater parliament that's kind of like
the stage manager but
you know the director is in charge of
overseeing the creative aspects of of
what we're making but someone is
marshalling this often times enormous
crew and all the background and all the
actors all around and the and the head
of that department is the first
assistant director and that's a very
stressful job. They um they
stereotypically die young because it's
so stressful.
>> No way.
>> Yeah.
>> They're trading the lifespan for good
production. are they always laugh about
it. They're always like, you know, we
they always they always have a they
always laugh and go, you know, when we
stereotypically die young. Um, but it's
very stressful job. It's hard to it's
hard to do.
>> They're the people that make sure it
doesn't go into overtime.
>> Yeah. They're managing how much time you
have. So when you make a schedule for we
shoot scrubs, for example, in in 5 days
and so they're
>> How many episodes in 5 days?
>> We shoot one episode in 5 days.
>> Right. And so they always always even
back in the day. Yeah. Five days.
>> Wow. Okay. It's um it's kind of crazy.
Um the new streaming comedies have
the ones that I direct have um have sort
of moved to 6 and 1/2 days, which is a
lot, which you think only is a day and a
half more, but it's a huge difference in
terms of executing it in a in a
relatively sane way. We're talking about
a half hour of television.
uh doing it in five days is especially a
show like Scrubs that has these uh
surreal set pieces and uh you know the
fantasies and
>> lots of moving parts
>> lots of moving parts like camera being a
character and also not to mention that
you know 60 to 100 background every day.
M
>> so it's it's a lot to um to it's a big
cruise ship to to to to move around and
um the the first AD is in charge of
making that schedule and um telling you
like hey we're sort of [ __ ] for time.
You got you got to move on.
>> Yeah. Well, so that means that there's
some scene that you aren't quite happy
with and you're like dude this you it's
done like you're done with the scene.
Well, you as the director are the are
the ultimate uh decision maker and am I
going to spend more time on this and
then say, "Fuck that next scene. I'll do
that. I'm I was I had a lot I good ideas
about how I was going to shoot it. I'm
going to shoot it way more simply now
because this isn't working yet."
>> You're you're the one who's in charge of
of the day. The time has been allotted
for that day for for just to do these
scenes. You have to do those scenes.
>> Yep. Of course, occasionally you have to
punt one, but for the most part, you
have to do that. And um it's you're
constantly watching the time and going,
"Okay, fuck." And what we do is we the
you I get a special call sheet that only
certain people have, the producers and
the ad. And that has little times
written into all of the schedule because
you don't want everyone knowing that
you're behind or you're ahead. It's not
good for for it's not a good leadership
thing. I I don't believe it's best that
you just uh
>> you do your job, I'll tell you when to
move.
>> Exactly. Yeah.
>> Yeah. How's it feel to be back in an old
production?
>> I love it. It's a it's a a whole new
responsibility for me because I I I did
this show as a as a young man. I was
very green.
Um I learned so much doing it. And now
I'm back in a leadership executive
producer role being the boss. And the
guy who taught me everything I know is
is not really there. And he um is there
to advise me on the phone and he's there
to get involved when there's a fire that
needs putting out, but I'm back now in a
in a in a capacity as as the leader and
uh and it's a whole lot more stressful
than just showing up and being funny. is
that talk to me about the the challenge
of going from I just need to show up and
do my lines to I need to show up and do
everything and do my lines.
>> It's extraordinarily stressful. Um did
you want that? Did you not just want to
go back and have fun?
That wasn't going to work. Um so Bill
Lawrence created the show and Bill it's
it was his sort of oneperson vision. You
know it was a very specific vision. The
reason it worked so much it was it was
so unique. It was comedy. It was drama.
It had surreal fantasies. Uh it had the
the the setting of a hospital which has
infinite possibilities for for comedy
and drama.
These seven main characters that
audiences really fell in love with and
and followed them for for eight and a
half years. Um but Bill has many shows
happening right now. So as much as
everyone wanted Scrubs to come back,
including Bill, he couldn't he certainly
couldn't be writing it and micromanaging
it. So, who would do that? Um,
there's someone who runs the writer room
and is the head writer. Uh, her name is
Aim Batra. She was a writer on the
original Scrubs. Um, but the writer room
is here in LA. We shoot the show in
Vancouver.
So, who is going to be overseeing Scrubs
up there, the production of it all? Um,
I had I had partners, um,
several producing partners who helped
me, but I I know the show better than
anybody. The truth, the truth. I know
the show better than anyone. I direct
the show. Um, and I and and my mentor
was the guy. I mean, I'm I'm the one The
funny thing is, I keep saying this is
that the pilot of this New Scrubs is
about JD coming back because Dr. Cox
says, "You should come back." um
we should get the band back together.
You should come back and make a
difference. And and and and uh and JD
acquieses and says, "Yes, I'm I'm I'm
here. I can't wait to work with you."
And then his mentor goes, "Oh, you
misunderstood. I'm not going to be here.
You're in charge."
>> That's the pilot of the reboot, the
revival.
>> And we were up there shooting and it's
literally what happened. I had had this
impression even though Bill had said
like, "Hey, I'm I'm running like three
other shows. I can't." And I also
there's also just some stuff with you
know it's a it's a Disney property he
has a Warner Brothers deal. He can't be
there complexity. So
but I didn't really I truly didn't have
the epiphany until we were shooting when
I went this is literally the show we're
making. He's the one who called me and
said let's get everyone back together.
This will be so fun. And now we're
literally shooting the pilot and it's so
intense and so hard and we're really
trying to nail this for the fans. And
he's like oh and by the way I think he
may have misunderstood like I'm not
going to I'm not going to be there. this
is you, you got this.
>> And uh so I I did have to step up in a
way that I hadn't foreseen. Um
and it was very stressful, but when the
pilot was cut, it was it changed
everything. Everyone was like, "Oh, this
could be really good." The studio, the
the network, Bill himself, everyone kind
of
>> Did it feel like a passing of the torch
when he got the the pat on the shoulder
from dad finally after all of these
years? Absolutely.
Cuz he's not huge with the compliments.
>> He wrote me a Christmas card this year
that was basically like the nicest thing
he's ever said to me. And then it ended
with, "I hope this will last for at
least a year."
Nostalgia is a pretty powerful force.
>> Yeah.
>> How do you make sure it's um serving the
show instead of just trapping it?
>> I think we were very aware of what are
all the pitfalls of these revival,
reboots, and revival. Malcolm in the
Middle's comeback too.
>> Yeah. I didn't never watch that show,
but it's had I as I as I understand it
been very well received for people that
that that show was important to
>> um for our purposes.
I was very I I I I sort of did research
on what are the common pitfalls of this
and one of them is just trying to milk
nostalgia because you're never going to
build a new audience by going remember
this, remember that. Oh, wasn't it
funny? just doing call back jokes
>> that gets exhausting and also it doesn't
interest a new
uh base of the audience. You're just
having people that um were dieh hard
fans of the original show which isn't
enough to really sustain an audience for
a modern day show that's in ABC prime
time and streaming on Hulu the next day.
>> You have to find you have to find a way
to build the audience. And also Scrubs
was very big around the world. So
there's a lot of people that are going
to that be interested, but they're not
not going to hold their interest um with
just nostalgia bait.
>> So the challenge is how do you thread
that needle of um finding the tone again
and but also bringing in new characters
and new scenarios and new people. We're
50 years old now. We were we were the
kids. The show was I just kind of you
think this is funny. I had this epiphany
just recently, but we were talking about
ideas for season two. The show was about
three interns.
That's what the old show was about. Now
the show was about three attendings,
three senior doctors. The it's a
teaching hospital, so it's always going
to be about have interns in it and about
and about teaching and mentorship and
friendship.
But um the show the focus of the show
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Did it make you see your experience from
the past in a different way? Kind of
fascinated at the opportunity to go
back, anything that's been formative for
anybody, any experience. Somebody goes
to to university and uh they have a time
there and they look back after a decade
and they wish they' done things
differently or they see things that
passed them by or that they didn't pay
attention to or they paid too much
attention to. And a lot of the time, you
know, if only it's the if only like
coach had put me in, I would have won
the high school game and then my NFL
contract. Ra varying degrees of
different things.
>> I um I wonder if
>> after a long time, 9 years of shooting
it originally
>> to then a break to then I'm back again
now different role if it makes you see
that experience previously in a
different light or if it allowed you to
close some loops and uh it made me
grateful for how much I learned. I mean
I was I wanted to make movies. I wanted
to make TV. I wanted to be a director. I
went to film school. I got out of film
school. I was working as a production
assistant and and waiting tables and
auditioning or doing all the things I
could to have as many, you know, um
irons in the fire as possible. And then
I got scrubs and I was so excited
because every def every week there's a
different director. And it to me it was
like grad school. I got to watch all of
these great comedy directors do their
thing and they all had different styles.
and they have to work within the within
the lexicon of the show. But they all
had different techniques and styles and
ways of doing things. And initially I
was just so excited to absorb
um their their their wisdom.
>> Your speedrunning production film school
basically.
>> Exactly. And with at a at a pro level
being the star of the show
>> and everyone else going to their
dressing rooms, me hanging out on set
being like, "Oh, what are you doing?
That's so cool." And them going, "Oh,
the reason I'm doing this is because of
this." And so that was amazing. I think
after a while if when I look back I go I
I I I I started taking it for granted. I
I see some of my I you know Donald
Fasison my co-starter we did a rewatch
podcast of the show. That was one of the
>> ultimately I think it was one of the
catalysts for this revival
and we were very candid. We we we
watched it and and and didn't hold back
when we thought we sucked or an episode
sucked or we were overacting.
And so I think when when I when I looked
back at it, I thought, "Wow, I at a
certain point, I don't think I was as
good and and I think I was overacting."
And I think I I see where the wheels
kind of fell off the bus.
>> And so now I'm very aware of now that
I'm the in charge, keeping everyone uh
uh at a certain quality, especially
myself.
>> Did you ever feel constrained by being
so well known for one role? Obviously,
there's a
>> Yeah. a curse of success in in some
degrees. people get typ cast, but
what was some of the things that were
enabled and some of the things that were
limited by doing that? It's what
everybody wants. I want to be really
well known, have a wonderful production,
and then at the same time, there's a
>> there's some side dishes that come along
with
>> that happens to almost everyone that's
lucky enough lucky enough, blessed
enough to to have a breakout hit. Um,
and it's very, if you look at the cases
in history, it's it's rare that those
people
get a whole new array of of
opportunities. Um, Brian Cranston is an
a perfect example of someone who did did
Malcolm the Middle and was was that guy
>> until he was the next guy
>> until he and until Breaking Bad. that
was passed on by, as I understand, the
lore was passed on by like every network
and and uh until I think AMC
uh made it and Brian Cranston was
reborn. But they um that happens, of
course, because people fall in love with
with this beloved character and they
don't see you as as another thing.
>> You can't hardly complain because you
were one of the extraordinarily lucky
people who got a an opportunity like
like that. But you do, I'm sure every
But you can't help but bemoone like a I
wish I could I wish I could be taken
seriously as something else. I I was
lucky that I had my directing career
that I really wanted to pursue. So my
own movies and make my own stuff. Um but
in the last couple years,
um I've been finally getting a couple of
parts that are outside the box of of JD.
Something actually through Bill again,
who's been my my biggest champion. He
gave me a small part on u Bad Monkey,
his show with Vince Fong, and I was only
in a couple episodes, but the part was
so different, and I got so much positive
feedback for it, and it it it it really
gave me a new found um confidence in my
own ability that I had sort of gone like
maybe I am just, you know, a comic,
maybe I am just a sort of JD kind of
guy. I mean, I knew I had more
>> colors in me, but I the response to that
little arc on Bad Monkey gave me
>> confidence and in a in a way. And then I
went and did this indep independent
movie that just got into Tbeca where I'm
180 degrees from anything I've ever done
playing the the this narcotics cop um
who lost his daughter. It's a true
story. And um so that movie is called
Clean Hands and it's going to be at
Tbeca uh to the Tbeca Film Festival this
this summer. But so yeah, I would love
to do more and more of that. Um,
but I can't complain. I've had I've been
so lucky.
>> It's interesting. I I wonder how many
people get what you had, which is a kind
of almost like a kind of Stockholm
syndrome for your own success. So
sometimes people get
successful for doing a thing. Other
people don't want to have to update
their worldview about that person. So
they don't like it when they deviate. I
think we see this in our personal lives.
Somebody is the party guy or the party
girl and then I'm focusing on my health
and it's like h this is I I I have to
change who I think you are. I used to be
and like it can sometimes cause a little
bit of obviously people that are in your
life that are wanting the best for you
are very happy that you're making this
positive lifestyle change. But maybe
people who don't want to make that
change too their their behavior gets
thrown into harsh contrast. Yeah. But
the pressure from the outside, what's
interesting about what you said was that
you started to see yourself potentially
in that uh through the looking glass
thing like well maybe I am maybe I am
just that like maybe that is like you
know lots of other people seem to like
me in that and [ __ ] am I ever going to
have a better hit than that thing before
and I wonder whether it's the same thing
with people who just want to change
their lives. somebody wants to go from
being that thing. It's like, well,
absolutely.
>> Everyone else is telling me that I like
I was the fun like party girl or
whatever and now I'm like I'm just a mom
and and I'm that's not as exciting or
whatever. Maybe people don't
>> maybe I'm not made for this as opposed
to No, that it's their it's their
problem. It's that person's issue to try
and update their view of you evolving
and changing person. By the way, that is
true in both acting and in life that if
you change who you're being,
the people around you have to change who
they're being. If I'm in a scene with
you and I'm all of a sudden decide to do
a take where I'm [ __ ] screaming at
you and yelling your face, if you're
even a halfway decent actor, you're
going to react differently in the scene.
in life if I totally change my life and
I'm not drinking anymore and I'm not
going out late and I'm um going to the
gym and and you as my friend are going
to shift your way of being around me
because you have no choice.
>> Uh we can we can both in acting and in
life shift uh uh choose to shift who
we're we're being and then people can't
help but react differently to us.
>> Yeah. Uh Joe Hudson, personal growth
wizard, talks about how
if you show up in a different way, the
other person's patterns can only usually
exist in his estimation for about five
to seven interactions.
>> Oh wow.
>> So there is a a typical way that you and
your partner fight, right? They get to
play the victim and you get to play the
bully. They get to play the bully and
you get to play the savior. Uh whatever
the accepted trade is. I'm going to
complain to you and you're going to feel
agrieved or you're going to tell me what
it is that I need to do and I'm going to
appease you. Whatever it is, there's a
kind of exchange. There's a dance.
There's a dance move, right?
>> Tennis, it's like I'm going to hit the
ball over there. You're going to
>> you're going to hit it back in a
particular way. And then if that
happens, especially after, and the
reason that he said this was after um
going and doing something like the
Hoffman process or internal family
systems or uh groundbreakers, which is
his equivalent, a weekend retreat, or
you you make a really big change in your
life, perhaps it's over a short period
of time or a longer period of time. But
if this first exchange occurs, the
person serves the ball across the net.
If you don't hit it back, after between
five and seven times of that not
happening, the other person can't keep
doing their pattern. They just simp I
mean, I'm sure that there's some degree
of sociopathy that you're able to get to
where you just you just do your thing.
>> Oh, there's enough crazy people out
there that will just [ __ ] plow
through your your nice evolved, you
know, renaissance patterns. But um yeah
that you if you show up in a different
way and I've tried to test this and it
really does seem to be like scarily
true. There's a a line Nal Ravakans got
where he says um we think that we can
change other people but we can't. We
think we can't change ourselves but we
can. And the changing of other people
the easiest way to do that I think in
terms of behavior change is not by
telling them what to do. It's just by
doing something differently yourself
>> and sticking to it.
>> Yes. Yes. Because if you then fall back
into they go, "Ah, I see."
>> Right?
>> It's kind of like It's kind of like
training your dog. Uh if you don't, as
my Jersey said, dog, if you don't um the
second, if you're creating training your
dog, the second they're crying and you
let them out, you're [ __ ] You [ __ ]
it up. You know, uh hold the line. You
have to hold the line. And in terms of
uh my experience, I didn't know that
someone had sort of quantified it to
five to seven times. That's interesting.
But um
if you're going to shift your patterns
and shift your way of being, you have to
hold the line. You have to you have to
not let the dog out of the crate and and
no matter no matter how hard they're
crying because uh
>> uh because then then then you've then
those people aren't going to shift their
way of being back with you.
>> Yes. Yes.
>> What have been the patterns that have
been the
I'm pretty fascinated by things that are
double-edged swords. Most times, uh,
someone's greatest strengths are the
light side of something that's kind of
dark. That, um, Ed Ryan Garcia, WBC
worldweight champion, and he's
obsessive, incredibly obsessive, and
that's caused him at some points in his
career to drink a lot and party an awful
lot and to struggle to get away from it.
Uh, it's also caused him to be
an absolutely like microscopically
focused athlete. who would spend told me
this story about how when he was a kid,
he had a fight in the ring with some guy
and this guy kept on catching him with a
particular shot and Ryan went home and
he just spent two hours in his bedroom
thinking about why was he what was he
doing? Why was he catching me with that
shot? What was he doing? What was he
doing? What was he doing? Then he went
downstairs and told his dad. He's like,
"Tell the kid come back tomorrow." He's
like, "You you sure you just got beat up
pretty bad?" Like that that didn't look
like a good experience. He's like,
"Bring him back tomorrow." And what he
realized was that there was the guy was
stepping and then jabbing and that
offbeat was throwing Ryan off. And he
was like, "Okay, so when he does this
thing, I'm going to step and then I'm
going to hit him with." And sure enough,
the the whole game was over because he'd
spent 2 hours replaying this fight in
his head cuz he couldn't not do it.
>> Yeah. But that same skill of the
obsession, of the attention to detail,
of the hypervigilance also gave him the
challenges of overbearing, problems with
his relationships, problems with his
kids, problems with substances, like
very very out there, anxious, sort of
like on edge thing. I'm interested in
Mine's similar without the beating the
[ __ ] out of anybody.
>> No, I I I have OCD and I I I had it bad
as a kid. I was I was one of those kids
who had obsessive tapping and you do
this math in your head as a child where
or I should say I did where I
you know it could be a doorork knob or
it could be this water bottle and you
say oh I have to I have to touch this a
certain amount of times or uh something
bad could happen to my family
>> and then even as a young person I said
that's crazy of course but just to be
safe it's kind of like a superstition
adults can relate.
>> Pascal's wager, the obsessives wager.
>> Yeah. Is that what it's called?
>> You know what Pascal's wager is?
Basically, that um I don't know whether
God is real or not, but the cost of not
believing in God is hell and the
potential benefit of believing in God is
heaven.
>> Okay, now imagine that in a uh
8-year-old's mind going, I'm wagering, I
don't want my family to be harmed.
>> Not sure if it's going to do anything,
but I might as well. My brain is telling
me that something bad could happen to my
family if I don't hit this six times
correctly. I know that's crazy, but for
safety, for everybody's safety, I should
do it.
>> We'll do it again for safety. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> And that becomes, you know, I I I had it
pretty I had it bad, but you know, lots
of adults and children have it uh way
worse. But I got I I I was diagnosed
with with that. And it made me an
anxious. Um,
my father had a real uh uh uh temper and
um
and that was scary. And I think I was um
he was also he also had a lovely side
and introduced me to the arts and um and
uh and and could be and was hilarious.
He introduced me to humor. But he did
have quite a temper that uh I think put
me for the rest of my life on on edge of
when something bad was going to happen,
when he would randomly explode.
>> Mhm.
>> And uh that certainly affected my whole
childhood and and and I I I still feel
it as an adult just a sort of resting
anxious state. M now that has been great
for for uh for me in terms of writing
and and comedy. It's but it's amazing
that I I sometimes I I find it crazy
that I can operate at this in in these
very anxious leadership positions
where so much is on the line and and
there's always a problem and there's
um I I I am so grateful that I've
figured out how to um just still step
into the ring and and and and do the
really hard things like
>> despite not feeling like it.
>> Yeah. despite like, gosh, I this is
going to be hard and I'm going to
experience panic and discomfort and
anxiety and adrenaline surges that
aren't necessarily normal for for the
level of the problem.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, an OCD anxious person will often
have an adrenaline surge that is like
you just almost got into a car accident
and that's what leads some people to
panic attacks. That's sort of like the
needle going into red and staying in red
and then there's a panic attack. Um
but but all of that has contributed to I
think uh humor and and um and uh and and
being in my head a lot and and maybe
some good some decent writing that
that's that's come out of that, you
know,
>> an attention to detail, right?
>> Definitely obsessive attention to
detail.
>> Correct. And I what I was trying to
think about
>> me sitting there on on scrubs at 2 in
the morning for an insert shot of a
phone that there's no reason I should be
there for. these people can handle it,
but I do not want to get to the
editorial editorial and see that that's
not the frame I pictured of the phone.
That's that's that's definitely
obsessive, but um it
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I think ultimately what what I was
thinking about was what is the outcome
that that achieves right because we
we're talking about process it's a
degree of uh detail focus orientation uh
hypervigilance
um uh bias toward seeing problems
>> as potentially before they've even yeah
playing you know anxiety is all about
uncertainty
>> I'm uncertain about how the future might
unfold so if I can think about all of
the different ways ways that it might
unfold. I will know all of the different
potential catastrophes. You're not
you're not usually anxious about all of
the ways it might go right. Anxious
about all of the ways that it might go
wrong.
>> Yeah.
>> And if I can,
>> but as a filmmaker who can't fall asleep
at night staring at the ceiling
obsessing about the big scene you have
tomorrow, it's not healthy, but it for
for mind and body, but it is helpful in
that I've probably foreseen everything
that could possibly go wrong.
>> Yep. Yeah. So, you're prepared. And I've
got texts going out at 2:00 in the
morning being like, "Did you guys da da
da d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
d and and you know, everyone's asleep,
but I'm start going like,
>> you did order the blah blah, right?" You
know, like I mean it's the dude it's the
same for me. It's the same for me with
this show. Um that
noticing
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson should have a
full stop after the B and I just want to
make sure that it's okay. Okay. And did
we check that we have we got the release
form that's signed for the thing that's
the thing.
So what I'm thinking is
lots of people who have that
malady strength
>> uh end up in situations where they they
can be very successful. So my favorite
example of this is to a degree uh Eddie
Hall. So he's world's strongest man 2017
2018 British dude 6'3. By the time that
he won, it's on the winner's podium and
he puts this trophy in the air and he
says, "Nana, this one's for you." His
grandma died recently and he's sort of
won this title and he retires there. His
first title and he retires. Well, he's
worked his life to get there. He says,
"If I hadn't retired at that point, I
would be dead, divorced, with no
relationship to my kids." He was 400 lb
at 6'3 on so many peeds that his blood
pressure was so far off the charts that
forget hypertension, this was like
galactic tension. and he was working so
hard with his training that him and his
wife the relationship was just
completely shot.
>> Uh and his kid didn't see him. So
everything was falling apart.
>> And I think about that and I go, well,
the level of obsession and attention to
detail that led him to be the best in
the world
>> also had these side effects that came
along with it. physiological ones that
were second order side effects, but the
first order side effects of just not
paying that much attention to my wife,
not paying that much attention to my
child, not nurturing my relationships,
not thinking about the peace inside of
my own brain. And as far as I can see,
the people that are really successful at
lots of things, not everything, but at
lots of things, are paying an
unreasonable level of attention to
detail. M
>> that is where the I'm trying to net down
what is the what's the like corn that's
being grown out of this thing for you
across your career. It's like an
unreasonable level of attention to
detail. Sounds like that in my own
performance in what's going to go on and
what might happen tomorrow and what did
happen today and the lesson I need to
learn and why is that why are you
>> why have we decided cuz I don't
understand why you brought that fill
lighter. Oh, it's for the bounce off the
wall.
>> Right.
>> Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?
And yeah, that unreasonable level of
attention to detail has allowed you to
do all these great things.
>> Yes.
>> And when people look at the outcome that
they want, I would love to be on a show
that gets run for gazillion gillion
seasons and lasts for nine years and
then comes back and it gets to do the
thing. I would like to I would I would
go, okay,
>> this stuff does come along for the ride,
too. Yeah. You are also going to not
only
be awake at 2,
>> but then it's also going to bleed over
into your personal life as well.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, you can't switch it up. You
can't say, "Oh, I I want you to be
obsessive and ruminative in this domain
and not be well, my relationships." No,
no, no, no. That's a totally different I
should be a different person. I should
jack and hide, Batman and Bruce Wayne.
Um, I'm kind I'm kind of fascinated by
that sphere of question, the price that
people pay in order to have the
strengths that they've got. I don't know
how pe people do do this with big
families. Uh, I don't know how they do
it. Um,
uh,
I don't have a family. I don't have
children.
>> I don't have a currently even have a
partner. Uh I uh
you know I I we when you're doing what I
do, you often will have to go away for
long periods of time. So I uh I I would
love to have that stuff. But that's
probably for me personally. Other people
are very good at managing it and
figuring it out. Obviously in Hollywood
there's plenty of people with wives and
husbands and families. I I um
have yet to have that happen. Um so I
think personally for me one of the costs
has been just obsessively
um being career focused
>> and um
it it it being um the most important
thing to me. The thing I love the most,
the thing I get the most gratification
out of is is creating. And um I think
that the cost has probably been
>> um giving watering the the the seeds of
of of having um a family and a
relationship. M how much of that's been
a conscious choice? You I'm I know that
I'm going to pay this price potentially
and I'm going to continue to focus on
the career.
>> It's not been a conscious choice. It's
just been it, you know, um I do think I
if I had put the level of attention and
intention and focus into um having a
relationship in a family that I put into
my career, uh that I'd I'd have a
different kingdom. Well, I Well, I just
have a different
I'd be like uh Jacob in the Bible, but I
I I um I have
um
I I I I think it's safe to say I just
kind of went all in on um I mean, I've
had some wonderful relationships, but I
I I have been through for the last 25
years completely
career focused. And when I'm not making
something, I'm writing something. or
when I'm not writing something, I'm
trying to collaborate with someone, I I
I I am the most happy when I'm making
stuff.
>> Um, so when I'm not I don't idle well. I
don't I don't um I don't
sit, you know, on a beach and uh and and
and just stare at the ocean. Well, maybe
for like a week.
>> Yeah. I think about um people talk about
developing a good work ethic, but very
rarely do people talk about developing a
good rest ethic. I would like that. If
you got that book, I'll read it. I'm
afraid not. Um I mean, look, dude, this
is I I get I'm this is part of my
neurosis, but I go I actually get
anxious when I know I'm going to have a
long time off.
>> Yeah.
>> Does work feel like safety to you?
>> I just feel like I'm most myself. most
in my element when I'm collaborating and
creating
>> and uh and when I'm not I um
I don't feel fully fulfilled
u even when I'm writing my own stuff
which is spending a lot of time alone
with the computer I'm not I don't enjoy
it on the collaboration
>> there's no collaboration it's lonesome
it's depressing cuz some days are I'm
sure you write you know some days you're
just like I suck I suck and then the
next day you read it and you're like
actually that's not I woke I had a
better night's sleep. I um I remember
this this comment when I first started
doing live stuff. So I just finished
this live tour around Australia and and
New Zealand and Bali and it was so so
sick. And um
when I first started doing live 3 years
ago uh someone commented with a piece of
advice and they said when I'm on stage I
always have two voices that are equally
loud in my head. One makes me Apollo and
the other makes me Sisphus. One says
you're amazing and you can keep going
and the other says you suck. You should
quit immediately. And I just think it's
so funny that when you have different
elements of the same performance, right?
Uh in in order to say a thing, you need
to write the thing first, unless you're
going to add a little bit. And and that
means that some days you sit down to
write and you're like, I [ __ ] blow as
a writer. And other days you sit down to
write and you're like, I'm great as a
writer. But at each different juncture,
someone that tends to be a little bit
more self-critical, someone that's got
this predisposition toward
hypervigilance going to be like, "That
could be better. It could always be
better." Yeah.
>> And that tends itself toward a kind of
ingratitude like micro in ungratefulness
each different time because you can
always see. I mean, I love that shot of
the phone. It was great. Oh, if we just
had another half hour, if we we've been
able to get that next 120D in and we'd
just been able to, you know, adapt it a
little bit more. And um but this is what
pushes somebody to be unreasonably
detail- oriented and to get to a level
of quality that is so beyond and the
market and status and and and money and
a claim. By design, there can only be
one winner at an awards ceremony. There
can only be one best anything, right, at
a time. the market rewards someone that
is going to continue to push and push. I
don't know how people enter this
business without having the mentality
that they're going to go all in at it.
Because what I tell young people who I
see starting out is like, okay, but make
sure you're you're going to go 100% of
what you have because every in this
town, every single person around you,
not every single person, there's
hundreds of thousands of people here
that are that are going to work really,
really, really hard
>> and they're going to have your lunch if
you don't.
>> Absolutely. If you're going to audition
and you don't have it memorized and you
didn't work on it as hard as you
possibly could and work with your
friends or work with a coach or or in
this case there's so much self taping,
uh, get a good lighting setup and a good
camera and and a nice backdrop and and
you're just phoning it in. Do you know
how many [ __ ] people are going all
out for that same part?
>> It's basically pointless.
>> You are wasting everyone's time,
especially yours.
Um, it's crazy uh when you come across
people that are that are trying. I mean,
I I only know this profession, but it's
crazy when you come across people that
are doing it halfass. It's like, what
are you there just you're going to get
blown out of the water. It was very much
a winner takes all thing with only one
person can play the role, right?
>> Only one person can be this particular
the [ __ ] AC, right, that's on set.
There's only one, maybe there's not
actually, but there's only one number
one AC, right? Well, three cameras.
Three.
>> Okay. You know what I mean? You know
what I mean?
>> There's only one a camera first AC.
>> There we go. Thank you. Yeah, you could
continue to go up the stack. Um,
typically there's only one person for
each big thing, right? And you go, well,
if that means that I'm not prepared to
go all in on that one or think about it
in a personal standpoint, um, you're
going to go out dating, that person,
unless you go polyamory, that person is
only going to be in a relationship with
one person. And if you are not showing
up in the best possible way, being
attentive, thinking about them, replying
in an orderly manner,
doing stuff, being thoughtful,
>> somebody that's just a bit more
thoughtful or a bit more chill, like
even the thoughtfulness of like I I
probably text them a bit much today,
like I should I I can chill out for a
little bit. The hormones are the [ __ ]
neurochemicals are kicking in. Um,
>> you will be beaten. Yeah. Right. There
will be somebody that's prepared to be
more thoughtful. So whatever the
optimal strategy is with regards to
effort, if you're not prepared to give
it everything, the person that will just
gets out ahead and that means that
you've lost.
>> Absolutely. Absolutely. And this is um a
career path that uh is so much luck, but
I often think of it as like it's all a
complete lottery. I think if you're
really really preposterously
good-looking,
you have a lot of lottery tickets.
>> And if you're a really [ __ ] talented
actor, you have a lot of lottery
tickets. If you're both, you have a [ __ ]
ton of lottery tickets. But it's still a
complete lottery because I know plenty
of people that are wonderful actors and
you don't know who they are.
>> And I and plenty of people that are
beautiful and good actors and you don't
know who they are. M it's it's very very
challenging uh uh career and I'm very
very present to to being lucky.
>> Yeah. How many people have you seen
across your career that you just you
can't believe that they never made it?
>> Plenty.
>> Wow.
>> Plenty. I can I I I can I um I have a
couple people that come right to my mind
uh who I'm like why have why is their
number not come up yet? that person is
gorgeous and has blue eyes and is one of
the best actors I know.
Um,
you know, they might get work here and
there,
>> but they're not a household name.
They're not they're not not a lead on a
show.
>> Um,
just go watch New York Theater. I mean,
you'll see some of the best acting and
in London, of course, you'll see some of
the best acting you'll ever see in your
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checkout. How do you think people should
reckon with the
cuz that's a kind of uncertainty that's
almost outside of your control, right?
That you can't make somebody give you a
chance at something. You can stack the
deck in your favor as much as possible.
But can understand why people become
bitter or jaded or resentful.
>> Absolutely. If you're giving 100% and
you're still not it's it's of course
you're going to get jaded. It's it's
there's no no one owes you anything in
here. And and and I have to remind
myself that too when I don't get stuff,
you know. I I I still read for things
when I'm when I'm when it's competitive
and I want it. And uh you know I had a I
had I had a [ __ ] I auditioned for
something that had a huge monologue. It
was like a two-page monologue and just
like I'm saying cuz I I look at a lot of
audition tapes from the other side of
the table if if I'm not you know how
many people are going to memorize the
[ __ ] out of this monologue and crush it.
Why am I even going to waste the time if
you're not going to do it? So for like a
week I worked on memorizing this
monologue.
>> I was walking the dog memor working on
the monologue. I was [ __ ] doing the
dishes looking over at the monologue.
>> And I went in there, I blade a tape down
and I crushed it. I was so proud of it.
>> Didn't even get a call back.
Didn't even didn't even get a hey, good
job.
>> [ __ ] you, dude.
>> And uh show came out and I saw the guy
do it and I went,
>> I was so much [ __ ] better than that
in my egotistical mind. But um but you
know, I didn't I didn't get it. But I
[ __ ] brought it. I brought 100%. Um,
that doesn't mean you're going to get
everything. Um, they didn't they didn't
want me. They wanted him. Yeah. I wonder
whether this is one of the reasons that
people have such a
This is interesting. I think the number
one desired job of young kids is
YouTuber and number two is influencer.
>> Oh god. Is that true?
>> Horrendous. Yeah. Um, kids, if you're
out there, you you don't want this
smoke. I'm telling you, the sheer amount
of screen time alone will kill you. Um,
but I wonder whether one of the reasons
that people like that, I'm aware kids
don't necessarily know what they're
getting themselves in for. One of the
reasons that maybe older people might
like the idea of it is that there's kind
of no rejection
in the world of you can become not
popular, but no one's telling you that
you don't get to do the thing.
>> You mean as a YouTuber influencer?
>> Yeah. Yeah. If you're creating just a
soloreneur or a small unit and you're
the guy that's in front of the camera or
whatever, like it's your thing. You can
do it as much as you want. You can send
an unlimited number of two-page
monologues and put them on the internet
and you are the star
>> even if that wouldn't have been picked
up by somebody else and no one. It's a
permissionless world.
>> That's interesting.
There's clearly um
uh
people weighing in on whether it works
or not by how many views it's getting
after a certain amount of time.
>> Yeah. But that's not that's a sort of a
soft rejection.
>> Correct. Yes. Exactly. That's exactly
what I'm thinking.
>> Yeah. It's so interesting because we
didn't have that growing up as a thing.
>> Mhm.
>> It wasn't a position.
Well, think about uh some people on
YouTube now are even doing sketch shows
in some of you full productions like
Shane Gillis, Gillian Keeves
>> this thing before
>> he's now doing tires.
>> Uh that's that was him just [ __ ]
about like you don't need there's no
there's a much smaller tighter thing.
>> Absolutely.
>> Yeah.
>> Absolutely. And uh I think there's a lot
of people making a great living being
whatever their niche YouTube thing is. I
go down the rabbit hole on these people
and I I
>> I I I've got some people that I just
love to watch and I'm not even like I've
been going down the rabbit hole on like
these RV RVs or you know
>> like van life people.
>> Yeah. The recreational vehicle people
that are
>> giving tours of their vans. It's not a
life I would ever lead. Although I'd
love to go camping in RV. I would never
I I don't want to live full-time in RV.
But I'm fascinated by these the
algorithm has been sending me these
people giving tours of their RVs. I love
it.
>> What have I been looking at recently?
There's a a guy that plays a role-
playinging
1800's
British war game, like a a third person
shooter war game, online thing, but he
dresses in a full kind of colonial era
British soldier outfit in his house
while he's doing it and he's got a monle
on and he's got a huge [ __ ] trumpet
and as he's doing the live streaming he
blows the trumpet. He's like, "COME ON,
BOYS. Don't need to be shy. Let's get
them." And he blows this. I don't know
what his neighbors think the [ __ ] is
going on. So, like, I got into him. What
else have I been getting into?
>> You know what I'm really into now?
>> What?
>> They have these [ __ ] videos of like
the greatest hits of when detectives get
people in the room like like to to to
finally admit that they did it.
psychopath finally realizes that he's
not that the detective knows what's
going on or whatever the
>> or like guy who murdered all these
people finally comes clean and the
detect like and if someone's cut the
video they've got a narrator like now
detective dumbarm will finally confront
him with the and you see their
techniques cuz you know they have the
camera up in the ceiling and and all
these they little by little they move in
tighter and tighter to the guy that's
one of the techniques I've learned you
know they get closer and closer
>> and uh you know they do good cop bad cop
they bring and they switch into a woman,
like all these techniques. And
>> you know, if you watched it for hours,
it'd be so boring. But they've edited it
down to like the most insane.
>> It's like [ __ ] Red Zone. It's like or
strike zone or whatever it's called in
American Red. It's um American football
when the football's live on a Saturday.
It's only games that are in the final 10
yards
>> and it just cuts between that. It's a
highlight reel of the interrogation.
>> This is that for interrogation. But they
cut like a specific case down to the
like 30 well the story of the
progression of I didn't do it to okay I
did it to 30 minutes
>> and it's and it's fascinating. Oh man,
the algorithm knows I like that. I I I
do want to do something with that just
creatively. I've been talking to a a
director about
>> I'm really interested. I I loved
adolescence that you know that show with
the wonders and everything
>> with with I love that show because I
thought it was so brilliant even outside
of the incredible craftsmanship of
making it as as as a as a wer but I I
really am interested in in that that
world of the detective work and the
performance of of
uh getting someone who's done something
horrific to to finally admit it. I think
that's so interesting.
>> I I would be very interested. I can't
think. I was trying to think in my mind
of a TV show where the detectives
personal cost of hyper vigilance
has been played out recently and I can't
quite think of one and the reason that
comes to mind I had a conversation with
a guy called Emil Lavine and he wrote
the book attached kind of broke
attachment theory into the world I think
it's the bestselling attachment book and
he's just written written a new one
called secure which is and
revisitation and evolution on the
previous one. One of the studies that he
taught me about was they bring uh people
into a lab who have had their attachment
styles assessed in advance and there's
some anxious people in the room, there's
some avoidant people in the room, then
some secure people in the room and
partway through the conversation might
be one of those ones where they don't
know whether it's started or not yet.
there might be in the waiting room or
whatever and a computer that's in this
office or whatever that they're sat in
computer over the far side just gently
starts wafting smoke out of it as if
it's there's some sort of computer fire
that's about to occur and he said that
the anxious people are the first ones to
notice but the avoidant people are the
first ones out the door
>> and what he was thinking about cuz he
spent all of this time talking about
what this is what it's like to be an
avoidant or a dismissive avoidant or a a
a anxious person or a secure person and
much of what you're talking about unless
you're talking about secure attachment
is here are the problems here are the
challenges that you need to face here is
how to overcome them. He's like well
what about the advantages cuz that they
there have to be advantages because this
has been selected for right
evolutionarily this has been selected
for so you have a degree of
hypervigilance
>> in the anxious people that's allowed
them to pay attention to something that
everybody else might not have noticed.
The avoidant people are much quicker to
make a decision. You know, the anxious,
oh, should we leave?
>> Is it going to upset someone? I'm not
too avoidant person's like just wy
coyoted out the door. Yeah.
>> And um
>> what that led him to explain to me was
>> if you were someone that's an EMT
uh or if you were a uh a SWAT guy, um
people who are avoidantly attached are
able to partition off part of their
brain. like I don't need those emotions
right now. I don't need you rumination.
I don't need you worry. I don't need you
whatever. I got a job to do or I just
don't want to engage. And the ability to
I just don't want to engage also means
that there's a person bleeding on the
side of the street and I just need to do
my job. I need to be a professional
here.
>> That's the avoidant person.
>> Correct. Yes. Their ability to partition
off little bits. Uh but they wouldn't
pay the same level of attention. So, if
you were to cast, let's say, a cop show
in this manner, you would expect most of
the guys that are the kinetic door
kickers to be avoidantly attached. And
you would expect most of the detectives
that are paying an awful lot of
attention to be anxiously attached cuz
they're going to be
>> Interesting. I noticed that the killer's
shoe was untied on one side. I wonder
what the That's how he That's how he
choked. Whatever the [ __ ] like that.
And what would be fascinating to me
would be uh looking at somebody from the
role of a detective who has this
unbelievable I mean you've seen this
with Sherlock Holmes to a degree
Benedict Cumberbatch's replaying of that
kind of he is this unreasonably
attention to detail guy in his
professional life that can't switch it
off in his private life. But I think
seeing
what you are praised for in public you
pay for in private,
>> how could that show up inside of a a
crime detective thing? I think would be
really cool. You got something that's so
pro-social and lorded bringing baddies
to to heal and you know catching the
catching the crims.
>> Yeah.
>> But then also you've got what's the
what's the same talent causing on the
other side and how is this person paying
for it? That would be fun.
>> That's interesting. I I you know, you
see aspects of the detective work in the
in the interrogation room in in you
know, almost every detective cop show or
movie. Um,
but I I I I'm I'm curious. I mean, this
is just a side note, something I'm I'm
curious about to develop for the for for
some project in the future is really
focusing on all these techniques they
they are employing. sometimes they're
they're bad techniques that they
shouldn't be doing. They're manipulative
and they get false confessions and all
that kind of stuff. Um, but I I it's I
haven't seen anything that's really
focused on their different strategies
for I think it's interesting.
>> What are the What are some of the
coolest strategies that come to mind?
cuz I remember seeing
>> one thing I just rip watched recently
where this guy wasn't even speaking and
he was just just silent and um
they these two guys were being
aggressive and they were like we know we
we got we know we know what you did. We
got and they did have a lot of evidence
that it was him. They just needed him to
say it. And um
they they they said let's give the
female detective a a try. And she came
in and she went 180° different. She was
like are you cold? sweetheart, let me
get you a let me get you a uh a blanket.
She got him a blanket. She goes, "You
hungry."
And he kind of nodded and she got him
food and she kind of just sat next to
him and and little by little he started
opening up to her. And it was, you know,
that's a that's a subtle thing, but uh
you know, there and then of and then he
eventually um
confessed and uh it was all of all them
strategizing for how to get him to
I don't know. I just think that that all
the stuff those guys are guys and gals
are taught is is and employed is really
interesting to me.
>> That would be fascinating. One thing
that they all do without fail is move
closer and closer and closer as the
person is getting uh closer to
confessing. They they they move their
physical position.
>> Do they say why?
>> Um I think it's just like uh intimacy
and and and um closeness and um
>> I don't know that's that's what's been
studied to work on people. maybe create
a sense of uh inescapableness too that
as this person is opening up a bit more
they're they're backed into a corner
they're backed into a corner
>> I'm sure I don't really know fully know
the psychology of it
>> but you would have a three consultant
criminology
>> oh I would fully research it I
>> but it would be [ __ ] sick because now
you know all of this stuff which would
just be fun to know
>> yeah well you could employ it in your
real life where were you last night
>> ne negotiate a cheaper espresso over the
the counter because you got in close and
tried to touch someone on the arm twice.
>> Yeah.
>> The you saw adolescence, right?
>> I did.
>> So that third episode with the with the
psyching in the
>> Yeah.
>> I mean that was just that's an example
where it was done just brilliantly uh of
her being she's she's not a detective,
she's a psychologist, I believe. And uh
but their dynamic uh and the kid is such
an extraordinary they're both
extraordinary actors. But that was an
example of a fictional account of why I
thought that was so brilliant. just it's
all dialogue, all brilliant acting, just
focused on uh peeling away the layers.
I'd love to see something like that. Uh
more of something. I'm personally
interested in something like that.
>> [ __ ] What was that thing with Kit
Harrington in it? Uh the first episode,
it was on Netflix and then they did a
French version and um the whole thing is
set inside of one of these. So, there's
been something like this made.
>> Well, tell me cuz I'll watch it tonight.
>> I'm gonna Dude, it [ __ ] rules. Kit
Harrington detective confession
series. Let's see if I can get it. A
[ __ ] criminal called Criminal. It's
on Netflix.
>> Thank you.
>> And there's two seasons now. And um it's
>> one ticket sold,
>> dude. It [ __ ] rules. So the whole
thing is set there. I don't think they
ever leave the floor that this is on.
They sometimes go outside for a [ __ ]
coffee and then come back in. Um, but
yeah, that was that was really really
cool. I'm um
I'm interested in what you think about
you. The network TV is supposed to be
dead thing.
>> Yeah, Scrubs revival pulls in like 11
million.
>> It did really well
>> people within the first 5 days.
>> Yeah, they were wrong.
>> What do you think that says about where
audiences really are?
I do think they um are still, you know,
there's there's a lot of metrics now for
for um for television, both broadcast
and streaming. The first is the live
viewing. That means you watched it when
it was live. Then they're very
interested in what the live viewing plus
3 days uh was. How many people uh DVRred
either DVRred it and watched it within 3
days or a stream uh it was on the
streaming platform, they watched within
3 days. And then the next metric they're
most interested in is plus 7 days. How
many people streamed it or watched the
DVR they did of it uh within 7 days. So
all of those numbers are very important
uh to the modern day streamers and
networks. Um
the numbers of people watching broadcast
are completely a tiny fraction of what
they were back when Scrubs was on
television and you know the shows like
Friends were getting numbers like you
can't believe. Um
um
I mean I I I I don't have the stats in
front of me but like the MASH finale uh
was like
you know a a large percentage of Earth
was watching it you know.
>> Yeah. Um that's just gone in terms of a
live thing other than the Super Bowl,
you know, and I'm sure certain soccer uh
games. Yep.
>> Um it's just not a thing anymore.
>> Olympics opening ceremony,
>> whatever they are. We all know what they
are. They're usually sports. Um um the
final thing.
>> Um
but the the numbers still are there on
broadcast TV for uh for for certain
shows. people do want to not survivor.
Survivors huge
um
you know there are comedies uh you know
uh uh like Scrubs and Abbott and uh and
for example that uh are are doing really
meaningful numbers because people do
still watch broadcast. There are plenty
of people that that uh they they skew
older y
>> um
obviously a younger demographic is going
to stream. They don't know. They don't
know broadcasts. They didn't grow up
with it.
>> I wouldn't be able to watch it. I don't
think I have a device in my house
>> that would be able to access live TV.
>> Well, you could really put rabbit ears
on your TV.
>> Go old school.
>> Yeah, you can. But the crazy thing about
broadcast is it's in the air. It's It's
free.
>> Snag it. Yeah. Here's the cold open. No.
Uh it's uh it's being broadcast to
antennas that you could just put an
antenna on your TV. And there's plenty
of people, believe it or not, that still
are are watching uh that, you know, the
broadcast um uh channels only. They
don't have they, you know, of course, uh
an older audience. Um so, um but all of
those pockets of the pie, all of those
slices of the pie are are are meaningful
and important. So, there's the broadcast
uh slice and then there's the then
there's the streaming plus three plus
seven. Those are those are all people we
want to uh to watch the show. A funny
interesting that's happened thing an
interesting thing that's [ __ ] take
three. An interesting thing that's
happened is that a giant really
meaningful number of people went oh [ __ ]
I never watched this show and went back
and started the series.
>> Oh cool.
And and uh that's really cool because
although it's gonna be a minute before
their numbers affect the new show
because they're gonna they have eight
and a half long they got eight and a
half seasons to watch it.
>> Yeah, it's a big run.
>> But um but that's really cool too
because plenty of people said to
themselves, "Oh, I'm interested in this
but I never watched it so I should
probably start at the beginning." Um, so
that's been cool too because the
one thing that's fun about the revival
is if if you're liking it and you're
responding to it like it seems a lot of
people are and you like these characters
and you never watched the show, well,
guess what? There's eight years of how
they became who they are. Uh, which is
which is
>> it's basically a massive prequel, but it
wasn't. This is the sequel, but you've
watched the sequel first, so go back and
watch the the
>> which if you love it is so cool. I would
love that. Um, it's kind of like, you
know, House of Dragons, Game of Thrones.
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know, I watched I watched um a a [ __ ]
is a night of a night of the kingdoms,
the novela about Duncan and Egg, which
is the new Game of Thrones thing.
>> Oh, I didn't watch it. Was it good?
>> No.
Such a shame. I'm such a massive Game of
Thrones fan. I really liked House of
Dragon.
>> I I thought that was [ __ ] wonderful.
>> But nothing can beat that first season
of Game of Thrones. That was just like
it was
>> I'm not into that genre at all.
>> At all.
>> You don't need to be.
>> And they got me,
>> dude.
>> They got everybody.
>> I mean, I was at uni. No, I wasn't. I
wasn't at uni, but I was still in
Newcastle when it was happening. And um
the volume of extras that they needed
with British accents in and around
Ireland or able to access Ireland um was
so [ __ ] high that basically anyone I
knew with a beard was being tapped up.
Were you Were you uh
>> I wasn't a beardy man at the time
unfortunately. Um but we had we had a
friend who had kind of long hair. It
looked sort of warlocky and uh and he
went and was he an extra in one of the
scenes for the things. It's like we just
need people that are in the [ __ ]
British Isles to come and
>> also it's cool because like they don't
make TV on that scale that much
>> um these days and as someone who loves
production and loves uh film making the
seeing I mean it became so fun to watch
the behind the scenes after the show one
of the best parts
>> because it was like wow how did you do
that and I loved that aspect of it too
just to watch you know big big
productions
>> a movie being done once a week a movie
being released once
And they remember the what's the one the
the big battle uh where he's where Kid
Harrington surrounded we're really
talking about a lot of Kid Harrington
today but where he's surrounded the
Battle of the Bastards I think it was
called or whatever. Yeah. Your guys are
nodding.
>> That was just one of the most incredibly
done episodes of television ever. And
and then then then you had the fun if
you're into this stuff of watching how
the [ __ ] did they do that?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's uh one of my
favorite things when that was coming
out. I would watch the episode and then
there's a channel called Emergency
Awesome and he does uh breakdowns of
[ __ ] everything. The guy's like been
doing it for quite a while. It's a huge
channel and he would explain exactly
what was going on in the episode and it
kind of gazumped. I found out that uh
spoiler alert that Jon Snow was a
Targaryen like a full season before it
it happened on the show because he'd
realized oh this flashback is with
[ __ ] Ned Stark and did this thing
helping helping you get out of context
that you wouldn't necessarily be
>> he's reading he's like the Sherlock
Holmes of watching series and um
>> oh he does it on a lot of shows
>> he does it for [ __ ] all sorts yeah
pretty much every big series that's
coming out he seems to be other fantasy
come sci-fi genre. Um, but one of the
things that was fun there was he
basically, and I realized this with Game
of Thrones in particular, he was using
the Czechov's gun thing as a real hack
for what was going to happen in in
future episodes. So,
>> there was basically nothing that
happened after season three, especially
season 4 in Game of Thrones, that was
superfluous.
Nothing. even though it was big and
quite unwieldy, there was never a
pumpkin reference that was done that
wouldn't pay off at some point in
future. And he would always be able to
say, "I know what's going to happen next
week. This is what's going to go on
because we just seen this thing happen."
You might have noticed that they brought
up that she wasn't talking much recently
and that's because
I was like, "This guy's
>> it's better to watch it after."
>> I know. I know. But I got and I did kind
of ruin the series for myself. I did
kind of ruin it, but I got so much joy
out of,
>> you know, an hour, hour and a bit of the
episode, then the 20 10 minute, 20
minute of the behind the scenes, then
the next day I'd go and watch Emergency
Awesome. That would be another hour. And
I was like, "Oh, dude, I'm getting like
[ __ ] triple my triple my money." I
don't watch trailers if I know I'm going
to go see a movie.
>> There's a lot that's revealed now. Yeah.
I I if I'm excited, like I just went and
saw the the Ryan Gosling movie, uh uh
Project Hail Mary, which I everyone was
talking about. And I was excited and I
thought to myself, I'm not even going to
watch the trailer cuz I I want to go
have a great experience,
>> not know what to expect.
>> I mean, I know it's an astronaut movie.
I don't want to know anything else.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh that's how I that's how I am with
most u when I know I'm going to go to
the theater, I don't watch the trailer.
>> That's fun. I once got um Neie got
ejected from Harry Potter and the Cursed
Child. Uh so me, this was uh
February 2022.
in Manhattan and I went with Douglas
Murray, Jordan Peterson, Michaela
Peterson, Tammy Peterson, a couple of
their friends and it was when uh COVID
masks were still mandatory
>> and we were all sat in a line. I'd moved
to America 2 days before, so I was still
I just go this crazy crazy. It's so big.
All of the people some of them are fat,
some of them are beautiful. It's crazy.
And then we got to downtown Manhattan.
and we go to the show and everyone's
supposed to have masks on, but you're
allowed to you can move the mask to one
side if you taking a drink. And
obviously everyone's having
refreshments, doing stuff like that. And
um maybe somebody had taken
there was a sugarin at the fact that
Jordan and Douglas who were you
rightcoded were this the theater or
something like that with the the manager
s and the staff something somebody was
scrutinizing the amount of time that it
was taking Tammy to pull her mask down
to take a sip of water to then put the
mask back up and had come over and
mentioned or maybe she'd like taken it
off and taken a drink or whatever come
over
brought that up during the show and um
then I don't think the response had been
super cordial. It had been like okay
like whatever you say and then it
happened again and then someone stood at
the end of our row and basically was
sort of like on mask watching them and I
could hear I was sat next to Douglas and
I could hear Douglas doing breathing
exercises trying to keep himself calm.
He's going
>> what an anxious my anxiety is creeping
up because the thought of watching a
play like that. Yeah. Well, I'm watching
this while you're watching me. Anyway,
the interval, the halftime interval,
walked down. I can't wait to watch this.
So, sure enough, I go through and I see
uh Jordan and Douglas talking to the the
manager lady, venue manager, and uh I
hear Jordan doing um so what do you mean
by mask exactly? And what do you mean my
sip exactly? And uh sure enough, this
lady was really really pushing the limit
uh of this. And we um I think we we were
able to stay I think we stayed until the
end but in a disgruntled way. And that
was I was like I've been in I've been in
America 3 days and this place is like
it's just so much more uh people are so
much more prepared to call out the
things that they don't on both sides.
You know in the UK the manager would
have apologized and the person that had
done it would have they would have both
apologized to each other
>> at the same time. Everyone was so on
edge you know.
>> Yeah that was that was an interesting
one. It's unreal man. I'm really happy
for you. It's cool to see someone go
full circle and and really love what
they do. You're awesome.
>> Thank you. I I I really love your your
show and I love uh when I I catch uh
lots of inspiring uh advice from your
from your uh Instagram clips. So, I
really appreciate what you do.
>> Heck yeah. I appreciate you, man. Good
luck. Let's keep in touch.
>> Yeah, appreciate. Goodbye, everyone.
>> Congratulations. You made it to the end
of a full podcast episode. You are not
so Tik Tok brain that you've completely
dissolved into nothingness.
Why not watch another one right here?
Go on, press it.
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“No One Owes You Patience For Having A Hard Day”

Chris Williamson
Jun 07, 2026
The Craft of Directing

The Scrubs Revival

Psychology of Success & Obsession

Industry Perspectives

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